I prayed fairly consistently to know the truth about god. I got an answer. It wasn't what I hoped for. In hindsight it was the only prayers that ever had actual real, useful answers. Thanks brain.
Posts by Qcmbr
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259Prayers that God answers. Any examples?
by punkofnice inwhen i believed in god i tried not to pray for anything selfish.. after a while i began to think that a lot of things i was asking my imaginary friend in the sky for were selfish for some reason.. i do not ever remember a single thing i prayed for ever being answered.
if there was the appearance of an answer it was because i did mental gymnastics to make it fit the delusion that god had actually answered me.
there was never an obvious message/answer from god.
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When Is Armageddon? Really?
by Cold Steel inyeah, i know that it's been just around the corner for as long as there have been corners, but my question adds just a little different twist, and that twist is: is there anything (according to the gb) that needs to take place before armageddon?
or can it happen any moment?
and what will be the first signs of armageddon?
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Qcmbr
Mormons do the same. For years we've been scared into buying useless food items ( in my case it was a 200 kg wheat) because (initially) the second coming was just around the corner. The high point of mormonism's growth was the late 70s when the fear of a nuclear war was very deeply embedded and everyone knew that was how it was going to end. With the state of the world it seemed like we lurched from one crisis to another and everyone seemed to be counting down the clock. I can't remember whether it was Nibley or Skousen ( I suspect Skousen) produced an unofficial talk stating that the second coming, using known dates and events mingled with scripture, had to occur in or before 1992 (I think) and we lapped it up. This was the final chapter, the clock was a minute to midnight, we were the special generation that would cause the heavens to hush in awe and admiration. As that fear and expectation has passed the church has slowly downplayed end times thinking ( at a huge cost to its motive power!) and is investing for the long haul.
No one spends 3 billion on a shopping centre if they think the end is tomorrow. Even if the average Mormon doesn't accept it yet the management know there is no Armageddon that they are aware of and have shifted their sales pitch from the imminent second coming to happy families.
Any believing Mormon should only need to worry when SLC starts building bomb shelters.
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Sparlock is helping Mormons
by cedars incheck out this awesome video - part 7 in a series where a mormon uses the witnesses as a proxy to figure out why his own faith is wrong.. sparlock, hassan's bite model, and even the 2013 "human apostates" convention talk all make cameos.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmesmlhydru.
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cedars.
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Qcmbr
Not certain whether you're taking up the challenge or not Cold! We could go to another board to discuss this but that wasn't what I was aiming at (I think we both know where we stand relative to each other, a discussion regarding the validity of prophecy I suspect has been done to death on those boards and the tone I would probably use would end up with me getting chucked off quite rapidly,a bit like eating a Big Mac in Hindu temple.) I was looking more to explore what constitutes prophecy, how little information is actually given and how it is often surrounded by odd things.
I have to work in a sec. so this is just a quick indicator of what I mean:
History of the Church (vol. 1, pg.301). Joseph wrote, "The people of South Carolina, in convention assembled (in November), passed ordinances, declaring their state a free and independent nation...President Jackson issued his proclamation against this rebellion, called out a force sufficient to quell it, and implored the blessings of God to assist the nation to extricate itself from the horrors of the approaching and solemn crisis."
Since the 'revelation' in D&C 87 was given a month later it takes on a different tone (verse 1 refers to the already passed rebellion not the future start of the Civil War)
Verse 2 suggests that war would be poured out on all nations starting from this rebellion but in reality neither World Wars were linked to the American Civil War. In fact , if you look at the following info it is posible to see how wars have been pretty consistent across the period. What the US Civil War did do however, was introduce serious trench warfare and the wholesale industrialisation of the process.
http://timelineindex.com/content/select/1311/912,1385,1311?pageNum_rsSite=5&totalRows_rsSite=127
http://timelineindex.com/content/select/1311/912,1385,1311?pageNum_rsSite=6&totalRows_rsSite=127
http://timelineindex.com/content/select/1311/912,1385,1311?pageNum_rsSite=7&totalRows_rsSite=127
http://www.salon.com/2013/04/23/the_world_is_actually_safer_than_ever/
That in the event of conflict the South would call on Great Britain is a given considering the cotton trade but Great Britain didn't join the war and therefore didn't call on other nations (its very vague to say that at some time in the future in some war GB would call for help!)
No Israelite remnant rose up to vex the Gentiles unless we are now linking this prophecy to the Middle East (!?)
No consumption of all nations has occurred.
There was no point in standing in Holy places since no second coming happened.
So in total the main hit had already happened (it just looks like its referring to a future event) and everything thereafter is either common knowledge or too vague to be applied.
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Sparlock is helping Mormons
by cedars incheck out this awesome video - part 7 in a series where a mormon uses the witnesses as a proxy to figure out why his own faith is wrong.. sparlock, hassan's bite model, and even the 2013 "human apostates" convention talk all make cameos.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmesmlhydru.
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cedars.
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Qcmbr
Shrugs, this was a good chance to put forward some info Cold - surprised you don't want to take it.
As a quick summary to my thoughts on JS and his prophecy I think we apply the tag of 'prophecy' (in most cases) after an event has occurred that can be interpreted as having matched the main elements of some statement. This is similar to the way people will respond to cold reading; finding hits while ignoring the misses. At first reading the JS prophecy on the civil war (I think this one we can call prophecy as it is published in LDS scripture as a revelation from God) is very impressive, especially as it is then backed up by further prophecy preceding the event. Like cold reading however, the main hit overrides the failing details that then need interpretation to explain. Furthermore JS also had several statements that never achieved the tag of 'prophecy' because they never happened but if they had they would surely have been elevated as such.
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Sparlock is helping Mormons
by cedars incheck out this awesome video - part 7 in a series where a mormon uses the witnesses as a proxy to figure out why his own faith is wrong.. sparlock, hassan's bite model, and even the 2013 "human apostates" convention talk all make cameos.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmesmlhydru.
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cedars.
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Qcmbr
Cold Steel - this probably isn't the thread to do this. If you'd like to discuss it and you think you have a strong case lets take each of the prophecies / miracles , one at a time, you present the evidence you have and I'll present what I found. Sound like a plan? Would be more than happy to start with the prophecy on the civil war. I will allow you to start the threads.
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What evidence is there for the miracles of the Bible OUTSIDE of the Bible?
by punkofnice inok. this is something i've wondered about.. people of certain religions tend to use their own holy book as evidence for things in itself.
this seems very circular to me.
using the book to prove the book in my view is pointless.. i am not aware of any of the 'miracles' of the bible or the quran as having any substantial evidence outside of themselves to give credibility to the books themselves.. has anyone come across such evidence?.
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Qcmbr
Not convinced I'm afraid. Still plenty of time to find some real empirical evidence. I think if you primed enough people with the idea that they were connected then you would start to find synchronicity in day to day reports (in actuality coincidence.) Now if twins always correlated moods,thoughts, experiences regardless of distance we have something very impressive, if however, we have ten stand out moments when it seemed something telepathic was occuring in the midst of thousands and thousands of non-synchronous events then surely we have to recognise coincidence (quite often I have had the thought that someone is about to die only to find that they didn't. The day, however, that one of those common feelings actually correlates to reality will stand out in my memory like a shining beacon.) Still interesting. Certainly worth doing research in.
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What evidence is there for the miracles of the Bible OUTSIDE of the Bible?
by punkofnice inok. this is something i've wondered about.. people of certain religions tend to use their own holy book as evidence for things in itself.
this seems very circular to me.
using the book to prove the book in my view is pointless.. i am not aware of any of the 'miracles' of the bible or the quran as having any substantial evidence outside of themselves to give credibility to the books themselves.. has anyone come across such evidence?.
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Qcmbr
Maybe the real enemy isn't simply one organisation. As an atheist I don't reject material information but as a skeptic I demand evidence. History has shown, with consistent evidence, that all claims made of supernatural events are either mistakes with perfectly normal physics-obeying causes or to be hoaxes. I'd be chuffed to bits if some supernatural claim could be proven leading to a new branch of science and some new knowledge.
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What evidence is there for the miracles of the Bible OUTSIDE of the Bible?
by punkofnice inok. this is something i've wondered about.. people of certain religions tend to use their own holy book as evidence for things in itself.
this seems very circular to me.
using the book to prove the book in my view is pointless.. i am not aware of any of the 'miracles' of the bible or the quran as having any substantial evidence outside of themselves to give credibility to the books themselves.. has anyone come across such evidence?.
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Qcmbr
Every day modern medicine makes the supposed miracles of a supposed god look trivial. Jesus gives sight to one man - big whoop - if that's the calibre of miracle then not only is he arbitrary ( he didn't heal all blind people across the world, just one who was lucky enough to be there) but has been superseded by human ingenuity. We can fly, feed billions of people, talk over vast distances, resuscitate the dying, eradicate god's inflicted diseases (like polio) , predict natural disasters with far greater accuracy than biblical generational vagaries ( and more importantly mitigate them) and of course restore the sight of many blind people. Remind me why we need this guy?
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Sparlock is helping Mormons
by cedars incheck out this awesome video - part 7 in a series where a mormon uses the witnesses as a proxy to figure out why his own faith is wrong.. sparlock, hassan's bite model, and even the 2013 "human apostates" convention talk all make cameos.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmesmlhydru.
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cedars.
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Qcmbr
Ok - here :S
Everyone knows why they are right, everyone knows what proves their viewpoint, a particular problem of faith based beliefs however, is that very few know what would disprove that belief.
As a mormon I loved the church, it was fantastic. I was glad that I had a progressive worldview that was welcoming of science (indeed welcoming of all truth) and instead of feeling threatened by the success of other churches, worldviews or non-mormons I, and my church, had a very broad view (god gives light and knowledge to all his children.) To be a mormon was not to take away from others beliefs, it was to offer them additional info they hadn't come across before. As a missionary I wasn't converting people away from say catholicism I was acknowledging how important that organisation had been as a way for god to teach them things and was offering them the next stage, I offerred Catholicism upgraded, Bhuddism upgraded, Humanism upgraded etc. All along I welcomed information because I was so certain that we had the facts, we had real truth , we had an actual prophet and this was the only church actually managed and set up directly by Jesus.
That which I described above is what brainwashing does. From my earliest memory I was singing 'Follow the Prophet', I was given 'historical' reading books on the Book of Mormon,I was attending impresive media productions on South American archaelogy that proved the BoM and so on. I didn't so much as find my testimony (though at 14 I did have an incredible experience) as have it layered into my psyche day in and day out. My weekly schedule (prior to the consolidated meeting schedule) was :
Sunday morning Sacrament meeting, meal at church or church members house, Sunday Afternoon Priesthood/relief Society Meetings, Sunday Evening Fireside, Monday night Family Home Evening (Lesson, songs and - normally edible - treat) , Tuesday Adults meetings at church for various auxiliaries (so Mum was on Young Women's Presidency so I ended up wandering church corridors), Wednesday MIA (church members mixed adults and kids activity night), Thursday night Sunday School, Friday night church sports / fireside / special activity, Saturday infrequent Stake/ Regional activities like sports events, Roadshows, Bring and Buy sales etc. In short my entire life outside of school was church related. Don't get me wrong, I loved it, but I was not exposed to any other influences nor was I ever taught how to think, everything was a black and white absolute of what to think.
The bookshelves of our home were loaded with church materials, my weekly 'comic' was the church publication 'The Friend' and then as I got older 'The New Era' filled with faith promoting stories, puzzles about the BoM and information on prominent church members or high achievers. On top of that we had missionaries over at our house regularly for meals and to teach people (female missionaries, my mum was single so males not allowed!)
This is what brainwashing is, this is what a cult does, this is what makes it so hard to freely think and evaluate. I have pondered long and hard about why I didn't see the problems, why I couldn't perceive the logical mistakes. The only conclusion I have is brainwashing. A person wearing blue shade glasses indeed sees the world as blue but the glasses must be removed in order to see that the world isn't all blue. I had to take off the glasses before I could recognise that the church was NOT true. Until that time every tiny bit of information (like that presented by Cold Steel) seemed like the most incredible proof and every negative bit of information was brushed aside with barely a flicker of recognition.
Only when you know what would invalidate your belief are you able to evaluate it - otherwise you are simply rote learning.
* No miracle stories of Mormonism happened as described in church lesson literature (Checked with primary sources.)
* No prophecies of Mormonism with general application have ever happened (Check them all!). Many personal prophecies were either easily fulfilled (you will go on a mission - said by the person who can send them on one - or you will have a child (doh - most people do) and so on) or simply forgotten and brushed aside when they didn't occur.
* No archaeology agrees with Mormon claims and almost all directly contradicts it (DNA proves no American Indian ancestry from Middle East, no animals of types mentioned in BoM native to Americas, No evidence of million man battles or sprawling huge civilisations matching BoM civilisations, flora and fauna not native to SA mentioned, native flora and fauna not mentioned and incorrect or anachronous technology such as glass windows, chariots, steel, concrete, silk etc.
* BoM contains various source material available to Joseph Smith and indicating human origin (Map of Cumoros Island with capital Moroni - key names in BoM, many names of places lifted from local towns, Indian place names and geographical regions, Swedenborgian spiritual philosophy, superstition and magic elements - treasure digging, seerstones, divining rods, rituals to collect buried artefacts, masonry, direct lifts from several books of the day (I can provide several hundred direct and paraphrased quotes from books of the day if needed - mind boggling) most notably the bible (lifts including known errors and puzzlingly things he corrected in his later bible 'translation'.)
* Joseph made several translation claims that failed (Greek Psalter, Kinderhook Plates and now we have a fragment of the original Book of Abraham papyrus, the Book of Abraham)
* Joseph committed several horrendous social abuses (cornering married and single women in back rooms, telling them that an angel had commanded them to marry him, if they would submit they and several generations would be guaranteed Celestialisation and if they rejected him they and those same generations would damned ), he had an affair with a 14 year old (culturally not that 'bad' but still unacceptable), he set himself up as the seller of property in each new territory he founded (so he always could make money), he set up a fraudulent bank and fleeced many members (the primary reason for a vast apostacy in the early days of the church), he made up doctrine on the fly to suit (Word of Wisdom to placate his wife and containing the instruction to drink beer but not spirits - unlike our latest incarnation of it, Celestial marriage and the whole temple to hide his affairs and so on.)
In the broad light of day only brainwashing can lead a sane, rational adult to accept this whole rotten lie. Even though the modern day church is very different now its history is mired in awfulness (Utah under Brigham Young was a terrible place where people disappeared, women lived under absolute male rule, polgamy plagued the people and saw old men picking and choosing young wives at will, castrations of men who wouldn't give up wives etc.) No matter how many flashy ads the LDS church puts out it will not beat its history and the internet.
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The Watchtower Writers need to answer this question "Atheism, not religion, is the real force behind the mass murders of history!"
by ÁrbolesdeArabia inhow come the watchtower will not side with christendom and address a topic like the following?
what if christendom had allowed islam to spread it's plunder into europe without a fight and great force?
i direct your attention to islam spreading not as a distraction, but to ask the question most atheist have asked me when we talk of this subject.
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Qcmbr
I can only conclude AA that you are being wilfully stupid on this. Atheism is not a belief it is a state. You are falsely equating the two. All babies are born into an atheistic state and are then subsequently taught beliefs. Marxism is a political belief, Christianity is a religious belief. Contextually Christianity is atheistic with regards to Greek gods. Do you understand now?
What you are trying to talk about seems to be ideologies that include a state of atheism to all gods as a tenet ( like Stalinism). If this is the case I'm sure all Stalinists here will be able to respond about their 'crazies' and their view on it.