I'll be leaving JWD just 30 odd posts short of leveling up!! Oh well. I won't be gone totally just I'll visit here very infrequently. I have a growing workload and I am getting snowed under.
I've grown some since I've been here, I've learnt loads, I've offended many (this is a bit like a Winston Churchill speech backwards)and so I'll say sorry and hopefully make peace with everyone (Irongland if your nice I might even read something from my tophat for you ;) I have enjoyed posting here and hopefully given a little back from all that I've received.
On my odd sojourns back here I'll check in just enough to stop my account dying, fight any evolution/creation battles, right wrongs and super stuff like that and maybe someday I'll be a real Jedi.
If anyone ever feels like getting in touch either to give me one last flame grilling, ask some question , prove evolution etc.. you can PM me and I'll reply as and when - I won't be offended however, if no-one pms me about anything..cos I'm a Brit and we have a stiff upper lip and only cry when no-one is watching or that scene from Zulu starts where the Welsh soldiers start singing before the battle....
Night night.
Q.
Posts by Qcmbr
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18Goodbye all - its been fun
by Qcmbr ini'll be leaving jwd just 30 odd posts short of leveling up!!
i won't be gone totally just i'll visit here very infrequently.
i have a growing workload and i am getting snowed under.
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Qcmbr
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14
Mormon myth: The belief that the church is the fastest-growing faith in the
by Dogpatch invery interesting article, shows how churches can "cook the books".
randy.
keeping members a challenge for lds church mormon myth: the belief that the church is the fastest-growing faith in the world doesn't hold up by peggy fletcher stack .
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Qcmbr
Hi Vitty, I could be glib and say God did it but that wouldn't satisfy I guess:)
OK how to baptise loads of people. Its fairly simple really - you have to believe you can do it. There isn't any greater 'worldy' secret than that. All these self help conferences / firewalking classes etc.. all work on one ultimate principle - if you believe you can do something then its possible.
To clarify its no good saying you can do something when really you don't believe it deep down (ie saying you'll be the best sprinter in the world when your 90 , have had a leg amputated and have a pacemaker isn't going to work!!)
OK so you have someone who is religious which if your really converted to something means you believe right down inside so that bit is solved. Now that's how I am - I hope Tetrapod and Terry etc.. can undertsand where I'm coming from. So now when you have one person feeling like that and then you pair them up with someone else who feels like that you get a sum greater than the parts.
So now you believe totally that God has prepared people to join the 'true' church, you sleep, pray, breathe, bath, discuss and work with that sole focus and belief.This gives you your authority to do what you do.
Now you add to the mix a belief that people actually want to be happy and want to be saved (the same principle as knowing a dam will burst and people will be happy to be woken from their sleep and persuaded to leave after the realise the predicament even if they don't understand and find it annoying right now. Non-believers are just sleepy heads who don't believe the dam even exists.)This gives you focus and urgency.
Now out in this wide world there most people (and here's the controversial bit) are following quite blindly routines, chores, habits, fashions, patterns of thinking etc.. laid down by their social surroundings. Very few people are really 'awake' and aware of what they are doing - most are like zombies - watch people going to work day after day! There are very few genuine moments of real clarity and thought in most of our lives. So when someone comes to the door and gives you a zen moment sometimes people will respond.
Therefore finding people to accept discussions is fairly easy - you just have to ask the right question to stop the automatic 'not interested' responses (let's face it most people are really interested in the purpose of life, supernatural stuff, chewing over philosophy, doctrine, belief etc.. most people want to know the answers even if to them God isn't it.)
That was one of my skills, asking questions that stopped people in their tracks and made them think a bit ( I was quite successful with direct questions such as, Would you like to be baptised? Which of all the churches do you think has the truth? Do you believe in evolution? etc etc..)
Now I guess the nub of your question what is the process - in my day it involved 6 discussions, two interviews, a vist to church and then any time after that baptism by full immersion and the laying on of hands to give the gift of the Holy Ghost. Teaching styles would vary depending on who you were teaching but we'd start with a discussion on God and the plan (why we are here and where we are going) and a challenge to pray to find out whether what we said was true (especially Book of Mormon), in the next lesson we would discuss Jesus and the atonement and then challenge for baptism. Third discussion was First Vision of Joseph Smith and restoration of the Church. Fourth was Word of Wisdom (health Law) and challenge to live it. Fifth was law of chastity (no sex outside marriage) and Tithing (10% income to church), Sixth was enduring to teh end, committment to live a Christlike life and be fully changed to a new way of living. We porabably got 10% of people go through from initial discussion to baptism. It was really fast and then we'd be onto the next family.
As a final bit - apols about preachy bit - we witnessed a lot of very spiritual things were we all felt the same thing so strongly we'd be in tears, we'd leave people a little bit blown away because the experience was so different to eveything they knew before - I'll blow the missionaries trumpet a bit here - no one teaches like a fired up and sincere lds elder. I certainly don't anymore! I'm more focused on earning a wage and looking after my family now than converting anyone!
Finally I actually loved what I did and you can't fake that - if you hate going door to door that is what shows (see point 1 about deceiving yourself and how that doesn't work.) I loved seeing people wake up and thinkspiritually, to question why, how and what they could do - even if the didn't get all religious about it. Most of all though I loved to see peoples lives change for the better - every thing I tried to do was to spread a smile, lift up and improve and that in itself is utterly rewarding - you don't even have to be religious to do it. -
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Please refute: There is ONE true God, one creator, one savior
by M.J. ini am curious, what explanations are there for the scriptures that affirm the existance of only one true deity, in light of christ's affirmed deity (jn 1:1, is 9:6)?
other than the conclusion that the deity spoken of could be inclusive of christ?
(perhaps in the sense of john 10:30--"i and the father are one").
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Qcmbr
Jesus and Jehovah are one.Discuss.
Old Testament
New Testament
1. Jesus (Jehovah) was the Creator of the world.
“Thus saith the LORD, . . . I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded” (Isaiah 45:11–12).
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . . . All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (John 1:1, 3.)
2. Jehovah is the Savior.
“Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me” (Hosea 13:4).
“For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord” (Luke 2:11).
3. Jehovah is the Redeemer.
“Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel” (Isaiah 43:14).
“Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law” (Galatians 3:13).
4. Jehovah will deliver men from death.
“I [Jehovah] will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction” (Hosea 13:14).
“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” (1 Corinthians 15:20–22.)
5. The Jews will look upon Jehovah who was pierced.
“And I [Jehovah] will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn” (Zechariah 12:10).
“But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. . . . For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.” (John 19:34, 36–37.)
6. Jesus followed Israel in the wilderness during the Exodus.
“And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night: he took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people” (Exodus 13:21–22).
“Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ” (1 Corinthians 10:1–4).
7. Jehovah is the husband or bridegroom.
“For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; the God of the whole earth shall he be called” (Isaiah 54:5).
“Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.” (Revelation 19:7–8.)
8. Jehovah is the first and the last (alpha and omega).
“Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God” (Isaiah 44:6).
“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty” (Revelation 1:8). -
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Mormon myth: The belief that the church is the fastest-growing faith in the
by Dogpatch invery interesting article, shows how churches can "cook the books".
randy.
keeping members a challenge for lds church mormon myth: the belief that the church is the fastest-growing faith in the world doesn't hold up by peggy fletcher stack .
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Qcmbr
The stats aren't as kind as that!
work was 9:30 till 9:30 with 2 hours for lunch and dinner - 10 hours - 6 days a week + 6 Hours on Sunday. 66 Hours. Minus about 6 in meetings we get 60 hours work a week. No holidays.
60 * 52 * 2years = 9360 hours (minus what ever time sick - I never was)
In my mission at the time we had an average of 180 missionaries and we baptised on average 200 a month so:
(180 * 4.2(weeks)*60hours)/200 = 226 hours per convert
To further very roughly split this up : in that 60 hours of work would be:
4 hour service project.
About 5 hours travelling.
About 5 hours visiting inactive members.
About 2 hours pastoral activities (running cottage meetings / administering to sick / preparing for lessons)
10 hours Teaching the people to be baptised.
So knocking doors / street contacting time would be roughly 60 - 26 = 34.
It cost therefore roughly (180 * 4.2 * 34)/200 = 128 hours to find a new convert - two weeks of solid door knocking / street contacting. Now since those hours are shared by a companionship if you divide that number by 2 it means on average we found a new convert every (128(total proselyting hours per convert)/2(missionary companions))/24(hours in a day) = 2.7 nothing but door knocking days (had we knocked doors 24 hours long!)
er .. I'm naff at maths so don't believe any hourly figures I give you. -
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Mormon myth: The belief that the church is the fastest-growing faith in the
by Dogpatch invery interesting article, shows how churches can "cook the books".
randy.
keeping members a challenge for lds church mormon myth: the belief that the church is the fastest-growing faith in the world doesn't hold up by peggy fletcher stack .
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Qcmbr
The LDS church growth is slipping badly. Amongst the rank and file we are suffering large scale burn out. The church isn't as exciting as before and when the individual enthusiasm of the members wanes then the growth struggles. In the UK I did baptise 74 ppl in two years and 'speaking dangerous apostate talk' I know how the LDS church could blitz all the other congregations into oblivion and grow like crazy however, I'm not in charge so we'll go with the current program and assume 'they' know what they are doing. Strangly enough we don't have half as much intellectual disatisfaction as we do boredom! This is one difference that I see in the UK lds and many people on this board.
The church has lost a chunk of its zeal by becoming more mainstream and being nice to other faiths in the hope that it'll get some back.
Still , if the bible is right we are in for a period of major miracles at some point (most of them bad ones) that will fire up the whole process. In the meantime the old guard will battle on.
Counting dead people baptised though we are comfortably in the lead ;) -
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World War III - Has It Started?
by truthseeker inthe enemy is invisible.
there are no rules.
they wear no uniform.
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Qcmbr
I think this is a world war of sorts in that there are several countries in the sights of Islamic terrorists. The problem as far as I see it is an underlying concept of Islam which th eearly christian crusaders thought acceptable - the idea that you can force conversion - let me exlain. As a missionary I was talking to a muslim guy about the spread of Islam and he pointed out that eventually they will rise up and impose it when they are strong enough - I said at that point I'd have to fight him and he said that is a Jihad that he and his friends were looking forward to. Now I don't think he talks for all muslims but I think there is a popular feeling amongst many young muslims that this anti-western Jihad is their war. Just to site another example that had me fairly stunned - we have a couple of muslim guys at work who were defending the terrorists of 9/11 and one was actually smiling about it - he was chuffed by this strike by his 'brothers.' I was also a bit suspicious when the other one took a 6 month sabbatical to go to Pakistan and came back spouting shed loads of Koranic phrases. I think that most muslims are not war loving psycopaths but I think there are an awful lot of young men who haven't grown up yet who think this is a war that they are part of and they probably sit next to you and I every day. There is a wider issue of importing these people and their culture via immiration. Enoch Powell was right when he talked about rivers of blood caused by immigrant populations. We now have large areas of the UK that have become crime ridden asian ghettos - even where I live there are three streets that are nicknamed little asia and have become no go areas for white people at night. There is a sad pattern that asian - normally muslim families buy up houses in the same street and force out the other residents and lower the property prices. They also do not in general look after the properties and you end up with gangs roaming derelict areas. My wife was abused by one of those gangs this week who dented her car and called her a 'white, f**** cow.' The local school is constantly warning parents to stop parking and driving illegally around the school and it is always the same minority of asians who do it - my wife and I sit absolutely flabbergasted by their disregard for others - they even ignore the police!!! I am getting increasingly racist with regard to the muslim community because in my experience they are bad neighbours, their young men are often radical without really believeing (they'll go drinking, smoking, drug dealing but they'll all be at the mosque for their weekly fill up.) Yes I am putting forward highly incorrect political views but when 'they' set of nukes and bio weapons - and 'they' will - the time for being polite and ever so understanding will be over. Radical muslims are a canker on our society.
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Mormons and Ten Speed Bicycles.
by gumby inthe other day my work partner and i were driving back to the shop after finishing working and it was hotter than hell.
we see these two mormon boys doing their thing on their 10 speeds with their typical white shirts on.
they had helmets on too.. my friend says..."why in the hell don't they use cars?
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Qcmbr
The mission gets an allocation of cars to cover outlying regions or for the zone leaders who have to cover a larger area to check on all the regular missionaries. Bikes are cheaper on the mission in the long run. Simple as that. I had a bike for 5 months and a car for 1 month - the rest of my mission was foot and buses.
LDS missionaries can't have sex so condom prices are neglible. -
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JWs Back to No. 1 in Growth!
by Amazing1914 init is interesting to note that of the total actual growth of all churches put together in the usa, 98.8% went to the roman catholic church (852,663 rcc vs 863,448 all ).
church.
21. united church of christ.
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Qcmbr
..we'll beat them next year:p
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Failed Bible Predictions - What say you?
by TheListener ini ran across a website that has the following on it.
it seems really interesting to me.
any comments?
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Qcmbr
Am I reading something different..this prophecy is completely fulfilled:
2 Son of man, because that Tyrus hath said against Jerusalem, Aha, she is broken that was the gates of the people: she is turned unto me: I shall be replenished, now she is laid waste:
3 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Tyrus, and will cause many nations to come up against thee, as the sea causeth his waves to come up.
Exactly what happened
4 And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock.
5 It shall be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD: and it shall become a spoil to the nations.
Exactly what happened
6 And her daughters which are in the field shall be slain by the sword; and they shall know that I am the LORD.
7 ¶ For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.
8 He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee.
9 And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers.
Exactly what happened
10 By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach.
11 With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground.
12 And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water.
Exactly what happened to the city on the mainland (not the island portion - if that had happened at Nebs time then the prophecy about many nations would be innacurate as only one nation would have done the whole job)
13 And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard.
14 And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
Er..exactly right again. -
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Failed Bible Predictions - What say you?
by TheListener ini ran across a website that has the following on it.
it seems really interesting to me.
any comments?
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Qcmbr
seems like Ezekiel was pretty good to me