that's actually a great opportunity to see if you've got real friend material on your hands or not.
one of my very best friends is one i don't agree with on some important topics.
we discuss them until we each understand the other's point of view and can identify the exact point of divergence.
Neat! I'm a *thread*! Thanks Dude.
That's a great feeling, when you've wended your way through all the arguments, put on the other person's hat, and finally reached that point where you both know and understand the same things, but you disagree. The friend I referred to above do that a few times a month and they are the times I treasure most.
People you can do that with are rare. When you find one, you gotta thank your lucky stars.
Dave
what are your favorite jw guilt trips?
mine are: "you hurt my feelings when you say things like that" and "oh i pray to jehovah, that you will come back, what did we do wrong with you"
"[Someone] is SO hurt and depressed. They just can't believe you've done this."
Dave
ranting individuals need not reply.
i need encouragement and general advice, personal accounts etc.. am i a christian or am i not?
i've come to a point where i'm not sure whether or not i want to believe in anything, at the moment i'm confused as to whether i am a believer or whether i am someone recovering from indoctrination.. i feel that i've not had a 'pure' opportunity to decide if i want to be a believe and although the thought has been in the back of my mind, the conditioning has made me delay it and my current circumstances and poor health are forcing me to face it - i fear facing it will make me worse because its yet another thing i am not really mentally strong enough to deal with.. is it natural i fear what being an atheist means for me.
>>see if i can 'sample' atheism and go cold turkey for a while and get a real balanced view, although i've not really been a church regular.
I don't think atheism is a choice, per se. It's what you're left with when you decide not to make any of the other choices.
Have you tried visiting one of those UU churches? Unitarian Universalist, I think it stands for. They are (as I understand it, I've never been) a church without doctrine, including the nature or even existence of god. That might be a softer place for you to visit to explore your spirituality, apart from any doctrine.
One thing that JWism ingrained in us is that doctrine is important. To most people going to church, it just isn't. As a JW, I was amused by the church-goers that didn't even know what their church taught. Truth is, *I* was the one to be laughed at, because I didn't "get" that they weren't attending church to follow some rulebook, they were there to worship their god. Even under the auspices of an organized religion, they were there to worship in their own way. Trinity/no-trinity, hell/no-hell, it didn't matter.
I guess what I'm driving at is you're battling with the question of whether god exists or not. So deal with that, outside of any doctrine that any religion might teach.
BTW, I have a friend that thinks of god like a scent. You can't describe it, and you can't "get it" from reading about it. You have to experience it. And the fact that you can't describe it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. (Needless to say, I don't buy that. But I like the idea.)
Dave
we all make friends on this board..but..what happens when someone you get along with,posts something you don`t agree with?.....are you afraid to tell that poster what you really think?..they might get really pissy with you!................are you afraid??..
................outlaw
That's actually a great opportunity to see if you've got real friend material on your hands or not. One of my very best friends is one I don't agree with on some important topics. We discuss them until we each understand the other's point of view and can identify the exact point of divergence. Then we're done.
Dave
i predict that before i am sixty six and a half years old, i'll reach 2,500 posts.. well, i haven't started a thread in quite some time, so i figured this would get me over the mark.
.
hubert .
Like you'll ever be 66 1/2 years old in this old system of things! The end will come WAY before then...
Dave of the "millions now living will never reach 2,500 posts" class
as i'm sure many of us ex dubs do i have had tremendous fear, anxiety, curiosity and overall need for answers about spirits.
we all learned the same shite.
any spirits are demons.
>>I guess perhaps change my behavior, cause me to do things I did not want to do. That's probably the key thing right there. See my grandfather wanted me to follow in his sadistic footsteps. It's like he was grooming me for it or some BS. So I suppose my fear is based on that, and that I would be fighting something trying to get me to do such things.
I can understand why that would frighten you! There isn't much that's more personal than our own thoughts and motivations.
I assume you don't wish to do whatever it was that your grandfather did? Why did HE do it?
Is there some part of you that wants to do whatever it was?
What if you assumed there was no such thing as "influences"? Assume for a moment that every single thought comes about only from within your own brain. How then would you reconcile a desire to do something, with the knowledge that you don't approve of it?
I do that. I see something I'd like to have and I'd very much like to just take it. That's one piece of me. There's another piece of me that knows I would feel bad for taking something from someone else. And yet another that says it's fundamentally wrong. All of these voices come together to shape my behavior. They are all collectively "me".
I COULD look at the final decision -- don't steal it -- and decide that the desire to steal was an outside evil influence. *I* wouldn't steal, so where would such an idea even come from? But it's much more likely that the goal-seeking part of me suggested that I could stroll off with what I want, and the risk/reward part of me explained that while I COULD, I'd regret it later.
Consider this: If outside influences could plant thoughts and desires in you, and they wished to do so, they just would. Why would they ever fail? They could just keep influencing and influencing until they finally drove you out of your mind. But that hasn't happened. The likelihood is that no such influence exists.
Dave
as i'm sure many of us ex dubs do i have had tremendous fear, anxiety, curiosity and overall need for answers about spirits.
we all learned the same shite.
any spirits are demons.
Whether you believe in spirits or not, you should at least be able to take comfort in the fact that there is not a single documented case of anyone being harmed by a spirit. Plenty of people dabble in spirit-world stuff, lots of people have seen lots of stuff, but nobody has "killed by a ghost" on their death certificate.
Would it help at all if you precisely identify what you're afraid of? What do you think the ill-intentioned spirits might do?
Dave
i have never understood why is it ok for jw's to marry unbelievers although paul clearly warns against it in 2 corinthians 6:14. it is not that i am against it at all, but want to understand why the wts allows it.
tia.
do not be yoked together with unbelievers.
I recall an elder in my old hall mentioning to me that he wouldn't be surprised if that became a df'ing offense.
Dave
...in all fiction:jealous and proud of it; petty, unjust, unforgiving, control freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty, ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevent bully.
", says richard dawkins in the god delusion p51.
he goes on to say, "those of us schooled from infancy in his ways can become desensitized to their horror".. would you agree?.
>> I find no fault in God's asserting His right to do whatever He sees fit with His creatures. If that makes me a monster, then so be it.
You don't seem like the "monster" type to me... :-)
I think it's quite a leap to say that since you approve of the recorded actions of your god, you are a monster. I don't think I could go that far. I'm sure YOU wouldn't drown a baby, or do any of the other horrible things we've talked about. I understand the idea of saying, "Since you approve of your god's monstrous acts, you are a monster yourself," but I don't agree with it.
>> I BELIEVE IN GOD. Period.
And one more thing... the Bible. You believe the Bible is an accurate account of the acts of your god. Dawg's point was an extremely good one, you don't have to accept the Bible in order to believe in God. There are Christians right here on JWD that believe in the Christian God, but reject much of the Bible as fairy tales.
>> Thank you for reading.
And thank you. It was fun and informative.
Dave
for those who no longer get your monthly km, i thought i'd just share a little "encouraging" tidbit from the material scheduled for this week's service meeting (tm).. there's a 20 minute "regurgitate the paragraph" session entitled "pioneer or die" or something like that.
i can't remember the exact title right now, but it was one of the most blatant "beat the sheep.
you're not good enough" articles i've seen in quite a while.
>> entitled "Pioneer or Die" or something like that.
LOL -- love it!
Beautiful, isn't it? Sometimes people argue that a "real" cult kills people, ala Heaven's Gate. I think it's worse to force people into this slavish, guilt-ridden life.
Newbie in the Writing Department: "Hey, when Jesus said, 'My yoke is kindly and light', do you think he meant that maybe serving him shouldn't be so hard?"
Presumably, they transfer people like that to the Cleaning Department...
Dave
