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1

Should you believe in Trinity brochure...

by _Atlas in

i was going thru my stuff and found the "should you believe in trinity?

" brochure.

flipped through the pages reading the different sections:.

_Atlas

I was going thru my stuff and found the "Should you believe in Trinity?" brochure. Flipped through the pages reading the different sections:

Should you believe in it?

How is Trinity explained?

Is it shown clearly on the Bible?

How was the Trinity doctrine developed?

What about the texts used to proof Trinity?

Etc. etc. etc.

And I started thinking:...

How about a brochure in the same format, Instead with questions like this:

Title:

Should you believe in 1914?

Sections:

Should you believe in it?

How is 1914 explained?

Is it shown clearly on the Bible?

How was the 1914 doctrine developed?

What does the Bible says about the end of times?

What about the texts used to proof 1914?

It should be tons of fun watching their faces when handled this while they try to preach to you?

Any thoughts?

8

My 11 month ordeal is paying dividends...

by _Atlas in

well i was on a mission.

when this friend on mine started wondering about my virtual disappearance from meetings.

i decided to shed some light on her worn out eyes.

_Atlas

Why do they say that you can only EARN your salvation by performing good works when the theif on the cross next to Jesus earned his by simply professing his faith?

Excellent questions you post Crinklestein, especially the one above.
See questions like these, in my experience, place JWS on their toes and make them analyze the facts for a while until they refer to the official position on the subject.
In the process they formulate their own ideas and some of them are not entirely satisfied with the party line.
Hopefully I?ll repost in the future and maybe we can gather together a longer list that can be easily referenced by readers with a "mission".
Thanks to all

Atlas

20

Da cross....hee hee

by emmamess22 in

by show of hands?

who thinks it was a cross?

who thinks it was a "stake" ?

_Atlas

There is also abundant archeological findings that lean towards the usage of the traditional cross:

Here are just a few:

http://www.leaderu.com/theology/burialcave.html

http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/crucifixion.html

http://faculty.bbc.edu/rdecker/alex_graffito.htm

I think the archeological and medical evidence speaks even louder. The testimony of first century historians added to all this leaves one wondering why has the WTS been so dogmatic about their belief in the torture stake.

Regardless of their choice of not wearing a cross I think the WTS fears accepting that is even possible that Jesus was crucified in the traditional manner because they would be adding to their reputation of faulty research and undermining their status over the rank and file.

Amazing what a little individual research can show.

BTW I invested a couple of bucks on patibulum-less crucifixes to sell on the last district convention. No one bought them. Anyone interested?

24

Question on Rom 6:23

by _Atlas in

"for the wages sin pays is death, but the gift god gives is everlasting life?".

rom 6:23.

for years we been taught that we die because of sin and once you die you have paid your "debt" .

_Atlas

Sorry Sabrina if I came across as rude towards you. It wasn?t my intention. You are right about the posts? I was quoting from two sources and did not specify.

Your post shows a valid explanation as to why they did die again. The reasons that you give about the problems of someone living much more than the regular lifespan of everyone else are also valid. But the underlying question that lingers is the validity of the doctrine of death as a result of sin.

Even the ones resurrected before Christ paid their dues when they died. The simplistic version of the sin = death doctrine does not match this fact.

These people died (and suffered in the process) for their sins and had to go thru it all again. It may be true that until Paul's real resurrection of Christ they shouldn?t live forever and their resurrection could only be temporary, it also may not be logical that they lived forever because of the emotional stability of the individuals.

But the fact that they did die and were resurrected is in direct contraposition against the claim that death comes by inheritance

Being resurrected to die again could be interpreted as being cut off from the "genetic sin" group and having death resurfacing again like an intrinsic fault of human beings.

24

Question on Rom 6:23

by _Atlas in

"for the wages sin pays is death, but the gift god gives is everlasting life?".

rom 6:23.

for years we been taught that we die because of sin and once you die you have paid your "debt" .

_Atlas

Maybe it's because they were not resurrected under the covering of Christ's sacrifice.

Because the ransom had not been paid.

But notice the case of Dorcas who died circa 36 A.D. (Acts 9:36-42) And was resurrected by Peter.

She died after the sacrifice. And yet she died again after clearing her debt.

Hebrews 11:35 talks about women receiving their dead by resurrection while others will attain a better resurrection

Thought WTS tries to downplay the first part of this versicle it seems to refer to conventional resurrection more than a restatement of a "Better resurrection" like I have heard JWs explain.

And Lazarus himself is said to have lived well after 33 A.D. by the Insight book.

I think this line of reasoning places a dent on the doctrine of the inheritance of Death by sin.

My question is, Why haven?t they try to explain this? (at least I haven't seen one)

It seems like a leak that must be fixed?

(Possibly the members of the GB browsing for ideas for the next study articles will take note)

Atlas

(Never saw it that way Elder... It was in front of my nose all this time)

14

Hypocrasy?? Could it be?

by Seeking Knowledge in

hi all, i hope i'm posting this in the right subject area:

had a "discussion" with my ex the other day, in which i asked him to stop telling our son that birthdays/pumpkins/santa and whatever else were "bad" as he was more or less telling our son that my beliefs are wrong.

of course he says he's only teaching him "truth from the bible" i asked him to point out to me where in the blble it says you can't celebrate these things, he couldn't.

_Atlas

Ask him if he has considered Romans 14:5 carefully and without letting the WTS drive his imagination around. Do not allow him to try to spin the argument to the drinking and eating pseudo explanation because the chapter clearly applies to judging in general.

At any rate? whatever rationalization he may come up with, you can always ask him if he REALLY believes the context was not addressing celebrations in general or if he is just repeating the party line.

Romans 14:1, 10 describe the issue having to do with "different beliefs and doubts" one of those being (and not limited to) culinary habits and festive days.

Hopefully he will see there is a biblical supported approach he has never considered before and will drop it. (Romans 14 always does the trick ?cause even the JWS feel the weight of guilt when they are shown to be violating a well known Christian principle even with the WTS support)

12

JWs That Only Attend Sunday Meetings?

by Doubtfully Yours in

ever heard of anyone that only attended meetings on sunday?.

can i do that without much harrassment from my peer jws?.

dy

_Atlas

Well those Sunday JWs are usually the so called "Magazine placers" who won?t even take a book with them to the territory since they skip the Service meetings.

Stay away from them. They are likely to be posting on this site.

As far as the harassment goes. Smell something you are allergic to right before walking into the hall? start sneezing all over. When the elders ask you to go outside since you are interrupting the meeting state you think it is really important to hear the info since you are busy and can only attend on specific occasions (once on the back room you can sleep away).

When your relatives ask you about it, tell them you are upset about the way that elder asked you out of the hall since you really wanted to pay attention. Stay upset for as much time as you want to take off to indulge in worldly pleasures.

Then sniff that pepper again.

24

Question on Rom 6:23

by _Atlas in

"for the wages sin pays is death, but the gift god gives is everlasting life?".

rom 6:23.

for years we been taught that we die because of sin and once you die you have paid your "debt" .

_Atlas

"For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life?"

Rom 6:23

For years we been taught that we die because of sin and once you die you have paid your "debt"

Lazarus, the son of the widow of Nain, the daughter of Jairus and others died and were subsequently raised from the Seol.

WTS says resurrection was only temporary since they did die later on.

But? Why? Didn?t they settled their debt already? Why did they have to die again?

8

My 11 month ordeal is paying dividends...

by _Atlas in

well i was on a mission.

when this friend on mine started wondering about my virtual disappearance from meetings.

i decided to shed some light on her worn out eyes.

_Atlas

Well I was on a mission.

When this friend on mine started wondering about my virtual disappearance from meetings. I decided to shed some light on her worn out eyes. I started with simple things that were evidently incongruent. She called me crazy and rebellious but I knew a seed was planted and growing. I simply stated over and over: Why does Jehovah seem to have different standards for his people on different parts of the globe? She knows witnesses from different nationalities. Also I asked: Why the JWS had the most improbable answer when dealing with the key doctrinal issues?

Of course she had to come to the rescue of her faith.

We started debating on a daily basis about the truth.

Then came the scholars and their lengthy discussions over doctrinal points. She didn?t buy it.

One day she said that I couldn?t prove her wrong besides quoting apostates.

I recalled the burden of proof principle? "Well JWS say Jesus didn?t die on a cross? You just convince me he didn?t and I?ll be back in the hall in a flash"

She could only quote the WT and really dubious scholars as support.

She changed the subject for many weeks ?til she had to admit she didn?t have a shred of evidence.

End of the story: She is addicted to this site, reading Mr. Ray Franz avidly and currently (even before me) posting here.

Now a days I know non of the high profile doctrinal debating really did the job. It was by pinpointing the things she already knew that she was tempted to research. Otherwise the issue from the cross had never even scratch the surface.

Recently on a post I was referred back to the "KISS theory" (Keep It Simple Sweetie) for the 607 B.C. date and realized that she was set in motion because of simple inconsistencies she constantly overlooked.

Can we list things that are obviously fishy so we can casually mention them to our relatives and friends still in Org for them to realize and assimilate what they already know and are in denial of? I really mean things that are not enough to get us into trouble but sufficient to spark the wise some research more.

I think a summary of this kind may help some out there who are battling with loved ones and don?t have a clue how to start without getting in trouble. At least it worked with her.

I?ll start myself:

1) Why does watching R rated movies can be enough to get your privileges taken away in the States but is not so strictly enforced elsewhere?

2) Why does one have to blame human imperfection for the mistakes of brothers and praise the Org and jehovah for their good deeds?

(This is my first post. Thanks for the support to all you outthere during these difficult times.)

Atlas

25

Hi I'm new too

by tata in

jw
friends

well, i post one or two messages here, but never tell my story.

i was a regular pioneer for six year, thanks god now i don't.

i'm still a jw, but you know why, yes because my friends and family.

_Atlas

Later a friend of mine talks with me and we spend a lot of time talking about the thing in the congregation and he gave the book "Crisis of conscience". WOW, first I don't believe anything and I was angry with Franz and with my friend.

Are you still angry with me?

_Atlas

Posts by _Atlas