Ahh! Was it hidden on an ancient lost cuneiform covered obelisk? Or did it arrive to you in a vision?
OldSoul
JoinedPosts by OldSoul
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48
Wife arranging for me to study with a brother! I need a plan!
by M.J. inhere's the situation.
my wife couldn't answer some deep issues i've raised regarding a few of the wts's teachings and dishonest representation of historical sources.
naturally, she attributes her lack of answers to her own lack of research and knowledge.
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OldSoul
People mostly decide to believe what they want, and then use logic to justify it.
Agreed. This is the overwhelming tendency, and everyone sacrifices logic for emotional comforts and crutches to some degree.
You could provide a letter signed by God that says, "The JW's are a bunch of screwjobs engaging in delusions of grandeur", It wouldn't matter.
Again, agreed. They would question the authenticity of the letter since it didn't arrive through God's channel. Thus, the need to first remove the FDS, as explained by the WTS, from the channel.
The only time direct refutations of the dubs will have any positive effect on a dub is when they are already open to it (they ask you directly or they are already having doubts).
I strongly agree. I have proven it through my wife. However, what I suggested to MJ is clearly indirect refutation. It is a way to respectfully get the dub to refute himself. And the person on the hotseat will not be MJ's wife. It will be an authority figure his wife trusts to be capable of answering his questions. When she sees a live drama unfold that demonstrates her trust is misplaced, she may start to think deeply again.
If they are not, it only serves to alienate you from said dub.
I agree, that is the effect of direct refutation. It forces them more deeply into their "security" environment, where they feel safe and are actually in the greatest danger of losing a sense of self.
That goal is not served if he alienates her with an attack on her most cherished beliefs.
Wholehearted agreement! He can be proved right and lose anyway. The approach most likely to succeed is the one that will allow his wife opportunities to think and intellectually challenge, and mildly encourage her to do so, without forcing her to do so. As a third-person witness to the discussions, she would be able to see all the unspoken cues the brother throws out through body language and would be able to form her own impressions of his reactions and statements without being threatened in the least. MJ wouldn't have to say a word.
The brother's goal would be to bring both closer to
Jehovahthe Governing Body. He won't be out to divide and conquer with a newly baptized one. They'll do cartwheels to bring a UBM in. That is a Circuit Assembly part waiting to happen!Respectfully,
OldSoul -
48
Wife arranging for me to study with a brother! I need a plan!
by M.J. inhere's the situation.
my wife couldn't answer some deep issues i've raised regarding a few of the wts's teachings and dishonest representation of historical sources.
naturally, she attributes her lack of answers to her own lack of research and knowledge.
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OldSoul
MJ: Or I could try and play "stump the chump" with my wife present, which carries its own risks and possible alienation of the wife.
I recommend this approach, but not with this objective. Stumping the chump is argumentative and will likely result in alienating your wife. Calm, reflective, logical inquisitiveness and respectful reminders of questions unanswered will do the job nicely and not alienate your wife.
In other words, hear the fellow out. Ask questions you know he can't answer, no matter how scientific he is, like "Why do Jehovah's Witnesses tie Luke 12:32 to John 10:16? Couldn't the other sheep be referring to the Gentiles?"
It isn't a scientific question. It is a theological question. And every JW is theologicless when it comes to answering it, all the way up to and including Ted effing Jarasczssczzzczs (or however he spells his name). It is obvious from the timing of the statement and Jesus anticipation of where things would go that he was referring to the Gentiles. Likewise, the context of Luke 12:32 makes clear that he was not comparing the little flock to a larger flock of sheep, he was comparing the little flock to the rest of the world, the "nations of the world" according to the NWT.
There are many more similar ones we could put you onto. Questioning theology doesn't require a lot of smarts, and you can point up how he evades answering in a joking way while maintaining a respectful camaraderie. Your wife will be amazed how many things there is no direct Scriptural explanation for.
The brother will likely say something along the lines of, "Well, that's pretty deep stuff. It would probably be better if we laid a groundwork first and then worked our way up to that." You could respond, "So, your saying there is a crystal clear Scriptural basis for that?" He will definitely say, "Yes." You could respond, "Well, why don't you just show it to me, whether I understand it or not. I'm sure my wife will understand what you show us. She wasn't able to answer when I asked her. That's why she invited you over here, to answer the questions she couldn't."
You will get more hedging and you will notice pronounced squirming and stalling. Then you will see a light go off. Prepare to be evaded again. Just politely ask, shortly into the different path of inquiry, "Now this does relate directly to why Luke 12:32 and John 10:16 are linked together, right? Because, I'm not seeing the connection at all." Look to your wife, "Do you understand how this ties into my question?"
Talk about calmly putting the screws to the poor chap!
Respectfully,
OldSoul -
15
When is the FDS appointed
by cocus illicis inwhen is the fds appointed
can anyone tell me the date when the wt teaching of fds's appointment over master's belongings became an official doctrine of the society?
was it a new 'truth' revealed in a wt circa 1914/19, or was the doctrine developed piecemeal in hindsight because subsequent events seemed to indicate it?
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OldSoul
Avishai: When you have that "not so fresh feeling."
Dude. It says "When is the FDS appointed" not "applied." That was too funny!
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Scariest FDS "AUTHORITY" articles ...
by ithinkisee in.
one of the traits of cults is that they constantly have to re-assert their authority and remind people that they are the boss and to listen and not question.. what are the scariest examples of authority articles to you in the society's publications?.
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OldSoul
w01 8/1 p. 14 Make Your Advancement Manifest
8 First, since "oneness" is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave." By regularly taking in the spiritual food provided "at the proper time"--through Christian publications, meetings, assemblies, and conventions--we can be sure that we maintain "oneness" with fellow Christians in faith and knowledge.--Matthew 24:45.IMO, hands down the scariest. Well, the scariest public assertion of authority, anyway.
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New OM Book replacement & Upcoming Elder School
by doinmypart inthe organized to accomplish our ministry (om book) will be replaced on sunday march 20, 2005 with a book titled organized to do jehovah's will.
this is confidential, so be sure to tell your relatives and friends that are still in!
will there be any updates to the org's procedures, or just a re-hash of old policies?
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OldSoul
Whats wrong with you lots? Grow up !!
Hm. Well, I can't speak for everyone here, but I have never stabbed anyone. What, pray tell, is wrong with you? You don't find it just a teensy bit interesting that so many ex-JWs are so pained and troubled by their JW experience that they feel motivated to support one another afterwards?
Odd. You complain that we are stabbing, yet you feel comfortable enough stabbing us. Did someone here stab you? Or are you feeling stabbed at heart?
Acts 7:51-54 "Obstinate men and uncircumcised in hearts and ears, YOU are always resisting the holy spirit; as YOUR forefathers did, so YOU do. Which one of the prophets did YOUR forefathers not persecute? Yes, they killed those who made announcement in advance concerning the coming of the righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers YOU have now become, YOU who received the Law as transmitted by angels but have not kept it."
Well, at hearing these things they felt cut to their hearts and began to gnash their teeth at him.Carry on.
Respectfully,
OldSoul -
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When is the FDS appointed
by cocus illicis inwhen is the fds appointed
can anyone tell me the date when the wt teaching of fds's appointment over master's belongings became an official doctrine of the society?
was it a new 'truth' revealed in a wt circa 1914/19, or was the doctrine developed piecemeal in hindsight because subsequent events seemed to indicate it?
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OldSoul
blondie: The explanation was that there was a war in heaven from 1914-1918 which was reflected on earth.
So, er, um, how do they explain WWII? The second and greater Heavenly Title Bout?
{announcer} Aaaand in this corner, weighing in at a staggering 0 pounds due to an ethereal body, its the Faithful and True Witness, the Alpha and the Omega, Jeeeeeeezus Chriiiiiist!
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When is the FDS appointed
by cocus illicis inwhen is the fds appointed
can anyone tell me the date when the wt teaching of fds's appointment over master's belongings became an official doctrine of the society?
was it a new 'truth' revealed in a wt circa 1914/19, or was the doctrine developed piecemeal in hindsight because subsequent events seemed to indicate it?
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OldSoul
Welcome!!
It must also be asked, this being so, that in claiming appointment, have they not have run ahead of Jehovah much like King Saul did when he offered up a sacrifice in Samuel's stead.
Yes. They have.
Reading from the NW Student's Bible we find emphasis placed on 1) not being misled into believing that Jesus is to be found in any one place, 2) on being watchful and ready to receive the master at his arrival (check footnote) and 3) that he comes at an unknown, unexpected time. It also tells us that the evil slave says in his heart (not publicly) ?my master is delaying,? which indicates that he had a different time frame in mind and instead of acknowledging his error and adjusting his understanding he becomes increasingly autocratic.
Excellent points. Post again.
Respectfully,
OldSoul -
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Two paragraphs -- how sad!
by Schizm inthe following are quotes of 2 paragraphs from an article posted on the wts's website.
it's sad how many flaws there are in just these 2 paragraphs alone.
http://www.watchtower.org/library/rq/article_06.htm
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OldSoul
Well, Schizm!
Despite the rocky start, I'd say that you are turning into a fine apostate. Intellectual integrity is starting to make inroads and your pent up inner frustration you've been pretending wasn't there is beginning to be made more public.
Isn't it very like a fire shut up in your bones, just aching to get out? And it isn't about beating anyone, it is just about holding them accountable for what they teach and showing where what they teach doesn't match the source they claim to teach from. Revealing reality is not abuse, no matter how often the WTS claims that it is.
These posts were cathartic for you, weren't they?
Respectfully,
OldSoul -
29
Just got my MFA
by under74 inyeah....reality still hasn't set in yet but i'm done with grad school.
finished my thesis and my mfa show on thursday.
still tired.
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OldSoul
Congrats!