Posts by Bodhisattva

15

sure sign of apostasy

by teejay in

jw
friends

there's one sure-fire way to tip off your jw friends and family that you're leaning apostate.... just stop insisting on calling jehovah "jehovah" all the time.

call him "god" more often.

talk about raised eyebrows and mumbled conversations over in the corner!

This brings back memories. I had set the date I would stop attending meetings altogether, having made arrangements for it to look like I was moving. I had a really good rep among the borg and just didn't want everyone to have to be all cognitively dissonant at once. In my last month I continued running the sound department till near the end, I read the Watchtower during the "study," and I probably had a Bible Highlights or Instruction Talk. The wait for the end was agonizing, but at least that end finally arrived - on schedule, even.

But the hardest challenge was giving a prayer that did not use "Jehovah" and did not refer to the Organization ("brotherhood," yes, Big Brother, no). I had been complimented on prayers before, and I had also given many prayers that - although I didn't desire praise for myself - I thought should have elicited some compliments. But this one got compliments even from my two inquisitors (never went before a JC, but came close when I mouthed off too much to a family member months before), and from the local "annointed" sister.

I was also trying to incorporate more Jesus and less Organization in my talks, as well as throwing in a few ideas that were slightly subversive, or expressed some of the more positive spin present in other denominations. I did this for two years with nary a question. For the most part these folks are desperate to hear something new, even if its a different way of expressing the same idea they've hear hundreds of times.

Bodhisattva

10

Have any given thought to...

by HenryP in

jw
friends

romans 8:18-25?

Bodhisattva

Romans 8:18-25 from the NIV:

18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

An excellent confirmation of Marx's statement that "religion is the opiate of the masses." It keeps them docile, unquestioning, lethargic. What, the Bible predicts we shall have sucky lives? Well, no sense throwing off colonial oppressors, then, is there? No sense abolishing slavery, no sense helping the poor. No sense working for pease, no sense promoting education.

Of course, too a culture where things were not improving even over the course of generations, this is just the sort of hopeful message that all ancient religions were built on. If there is no way to a better life now, the hope for a better life in some future promised existence should stop the peasants from killing themselves, and certainly will stop them from overthrowing the status quo.

Bodhisattva

31

'OUR KINGDOM MINISTRY' . . . . . . . . . . [scans]

by nicolaou in

well he's always asking for them so, kent, here they are.

i'll add the new ones each month as i receive them.. i've got most of the km's going back a few years but please don't ask me to scan the lot!

if there are specific issues you need however, just let me know.. posting them here so everyone can grab 'em as opposed to emailing out dozens of copies.. nic'.

Bodhisattva

At the 1998 Kingdom Ministry School, we were told that soon the monthly offers would just be the Knowledge book or the Require brochure. They may also have mentioned magazine subscriptions. But definitely the endless cycle of doctrinely-obsolete 192-yellow-page books, the twisted-to-fit-us Revelation Climax book, and the chock-full-o-misquotes-and-disingenuous-reasoning Creation book, was promised to end. Perhaps not in those exact words!

But shock of shocks, something the WTS predicted didn't come true. Something, for that matter, over which they have control.

Bodhisattva

38

Gender discrimination?

by teejay in

sixty minutes covered this story a month ago and meet the press brought it up again this morning when rumsfeld was interviewed.... when stationing troops in foreign countries, the u.s. military tries to abide by the rules of the country.

in saudi arabia, the custom for women in public is that they wear an abaya, a floor-length, long-sleeve, loose-fitting garment that covers everything but the face.

air force lt. col. martha mcsally filed a lawsuit against the pentagon, arguing that the policy was discriminatory because men are not required to dress in traditional muslim garments.. when interviewed on sixty minutes, mcsally was so offended by the garment that she would not put it on just to demonstrate what it looked like.

Bodhisattva

I've wanted to hear more detail on this situation (I still haven't). My understanding is that she also must be accompanied by a male at all times. Not a bad idea in some cities for any man or woman to not be alone, but that doesn't mean imposing it is justified. Also, I got the impression that she did indeed follow orders, even while challenging the validity of them. In both instances - follow orders as a member of the military despite finding them odious, and calling attention to orders that do not seem to be appropriate - she is doing her duty.

8

The Environmental Crimes of the WTS

by Mindchild in

jw
friends

the environmental crimes of the wts

this is a thread that ive been wanting to do for a long time but havent really had the time to do the research needed to flesh out things completely.

the objective of my research is to show the true environmental cost of being a jehovahs witness and furthermore to prepare the information for publication in online environmental websites for the intent of rallying support to change wts policies to make their organization more environmentally friendly.. perhaps this is a strange concept for many of you reading this because we normally dont think of the watchtower society as a dirty industry.

Bodhisattva

WT and Awake are both 32 pages each, 24 times per year each. Size is 7 x 9 inches. Figure 20 million copies of each printed (interesting to look at reported placements plus publishers, subtract sum from the product of average printing times 24, and figure out how many million are gathering dust in drawers). KM is same size but not full color; my recollection is 4 pages most months with 8 page editions coming out quarterly, thus 64 pages per year. Add 10 million new release books, another 6 million books for new book study publications, 10 million new release 32-page brochures.

Magazines: 2 mags x 32 pages x 24 editions per year x 20 million = 30.72 thousand million pages.

KM's: 64 pages per year x 6 million = 384 million pages.

Books and brochures: 1 new book x 256 pages x 1/3 size of mag page x 10 million, 1 study book x 256 pages x 1/3 size x 6 million, 1 new brochure x 32 pages x 10 million = 1.685 thousand million

32.789 billion* without counting book, brochure, and tract placements, which are probably only 2/3 to 1/2 of the number consumed (remainder age until tosed because of yellowing), so add these according to annual report.

32.789 billion x 7 x 9 inches = over 2 trillion* square inches, 14.3 billion square feet, equivalent to 115 million rolls of Scott tissues, but not as soft.

Bodhisattva
The god of the dolphins has flippers.

* "Billion" = 10^9 and "Trillion" = 10^12 per U.S. usage

Edited for formatting and addition of two paragraphs, and correcting book to magazine page factor from 1/2 to 1/3.

29

George W. Bush: 9.30AM Sept 11 2001

by 2SYN in

simon, please add a 'conspiracy theories' section!

hehe!

check this out...could it be true?.

Bodhisattva

Seeker, just a clarification: I don't think anyone else is saying that GWB's exact words were correct regionally or otherwise, just that they were an understandable flub. The transcript should and does reflect what was actually said, not how it would appear were it edited for clarity. He should have more [interjections] than the New World Translation does.

Bodhisattva
The god of the dolphins has flippers.

Edited to remove repetitive, and unneeded, criticism of Icke article.

10

How A Witness Might Respond to Doctrinal Errors

by stevieb1 in

jw
friends

hello people.

i would appreciate your take on the following reasoning.. a witness when presented with some errors of wt doctrine such as 607bce for example could turn round and say, "well we might be wrong on this but this matter is not as bad as teaching that god burns sinners in a fiery hell forever like some religion of christendom do.

i do not feel that chronology (or some other matter) affects my relationship with jehovah and his organization.

Bodhisattva

The constant JW response to anything good in this world, from Habitat for Humanity to soup kitchens to peace talks, is ''it's not a panacea.'' Toward the end of my time inside I was astounded how often this put-down was used. ''Judge not lest ye be judged. For with what judgement ye judged, so shall ye be judged.''

You cannot say 'your religion is because it has this teeny-tiny flaw, which is really just an esoteric interpretation of some old scrolls that my religion disagrees with your religion on,' and then say, 'my religion is right even if it has this or that flaw which affects the entire framework, because we don't teach that teeny-tiny flawed teaching your religion does.' Well, you can, but it wouldn't make much sense.

Watchtowerism is not a panacea. So there!

20

Anyone go to an Internatinal Convention????

by VeniceIT in

jw
friends

i know i've posted about this in the past, but there are so many new people, and sooooo many lurkers i thought i'd bring it up again.

i went on 2 convetion tours and have to admit we had a wonderful time.

i also made some really good friends from all over that i haven't been able to keep in touch with.

Bodhisattva

1996 - Poland and Estonia. Met lots of neat folks, lost touch with all of them.

Best experience:

Brother CO, Sister CO, and family (father, mother, barely adult daughter) from flyover country are sitting in lobby of the Hotel Notnamedhere in Tallinn. They are drinking liquor, green liquor, from a bottle on which the only writing is Estonian, or possibly Finnish. Brother CO has been rather insistent that Bodhisattva should drink the wine provided with the trip's included dinners rather than order water.

Brother CO: Brother Bodhisattva, please come and join us for a drink.
Bodhi: No, thanks, I think I'll take a raincheck.

Following evening. Bodhi is with several other younger folks taking a walk with local young superbrother. They enter a convenience store

Superkid: This is the only 24-hour convenience in the Baltics!
Bodhi, barely used to convenience stores carrying beer, much less hard liquor, marvels at large, large bottles and high, high proofs. Superkid points out several products.
Superkid: And this is very good; (points to same green liquor CO & co. were drinking prior evening, but then points to cans next to it) but here it is pre-mixed, 4:1. You would never want to drink it straight!
Bodhi wonders how CO and co. could walk upright that morning.

Bodhisattva

20

New Watchtower CD?

by Xander in

jw
friends

i'm going to post another thread on this since my last attempt to hijack a thread was utterly in vain.. does anyone have the latest watchtower library cd?

i *think* the year was '99 or '01, but i'm not 100% on that.. if so, would it be possible to put an iso of it on the web somewhere?

(or, if not, at least host it on your computer for a bit such that i could pick it up via icq or gnutella or something?).

Bodhisattva

Moxy -

I was considering, to quote Dr. Rice, ''the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.'' What I mean is that if someone is by definition not a part of the market for a work, there is no effect on the market for or value of the work if they are supplied a copy. Making photocopies of a current edition of my school's magazine for distribution would potentially cut into their distribution of the original work, which is objectionable even though it is free. But if they refused to send out copies to people in Kansas, but I had a friend in Kansas to whom I wanted to show the layout of the sports schedules, I would think it is fair use to send him a photocopy of the page.

While this is a murky area and few fair use advisories will ever suggest that copying an entire work is appropriate, I was chiefly pointing out the contrast between Ray's books, which are made available at a market price to anyone who wishes to buy them, as opposed to the Watchtower CD, which is not available to Xander at any price.

Bodhisattva

29

George W. Bush: 9.30AM Sept 11 2001

by 2SYN in

simon, please add a 'conspiracy theories' section!

hehe!

check this out...could it be true?.

Bodhisattva

Dubla, Derek, and Expat have expressed my thought, that the Resident saw that a plane had hit the first tower, as indeed some early news reports indicated. Clearly GWB has difficulty while not scripted, and the whole quote shows a lack of clear, chronological narration.

While it shows poor judgement to put off leaving the classroom sooner, it is understandable; we were all surprised that there were more planes, especially given that prior attacks had been precisely coordinated (African embassies) or single-point (Oklahoma City).

Icke undermines his own credibility when he goes on about the first plane being an airliner. Early on news reports indicated that ''a small plane'' had crashed into the building, which makes sense since a) the huge building dwarfed the plane, giving the impression that the plane was small, and b) most folks thought it was an accident, and a small private plane is what first pops into mind for some in that circumstance.

Seeker, sorry, but assuming that something GWB says spontaneously should make sense is like expecting a senile elder to read the Watchtower perfectly. You know you're going to hear about ''fleshy orgasms.''