Posts by Ticker

17

Any successful methods to discreetly reach out to someone who is studying?

by sseveninches in

my father had me go with him to do a study, and the guy looked like he's a pretty smart guy, and he was asking legitimate questions that i had my own answers to, but of course i couldn't say them.. i'm wondering if anyone has successfully been able to convince/warn anyone that they're getting sucked into a cult.

i wanted to just secretly slip him a note, but i'm always scared to do that from fear of the person throwing me under the bus.

then i got the idea of sending him a text message from a number that can't be traced back to me.

Ticker

Depends on your situation and how far the indoctrination has progressed. If he is a very new study he might not throw you under the bus so to speak. A simple suggestion to google the religion and it's doctrine biased beliefs may be enough of a warning. If he is fairly along in the process more caution may be necessary but either way I would somehow try to help them avoid being misled. Maybe have someone from this board that you trust and know contact this man with a text. You could privately pm them the number and formulate a plan. If the guy is sincere in a search for God steer him away from the Watchtower and suggest he consider taking in a Sunday sermon at any denomination that follows the centrally accepted theme of Christianity.

There he won't be forced into nothing unknowingly, find good social interaction, support and no strings are attached. It may also spare him from getting tangled up in any of the other legalistic Religions such as Mormon, SDA, etc..

Good luck.

179

athiest this is for you!

by unstopableravens in

i have to give props to most athiest on jwn, for one thing, you guys dont run away, i have been having discussions on youtube with jw and it is so frustrating.

what makes it frustrating is unlike me and athiest ,the jw and myself both claim the same thing that the bible is gods word, almost everytime i get into a discussion with one they make a claim i show them bible verse and they have no answer, so they attack me other than the point i bring up, than they say om under satan control, all for just using the bible.

than they say not to contact them anymore.

Ticker

In response to CantLeave,

We were not created with original sin but it was a consequence of an action much like the death of David's child. God had to provide redemption because no created being can atone for sin. God is perfect and to allow sin would corrupt that very attribute, no one else could pay that debt but his son Jesus.

As to why Uzzah died when he touched the Ark of the Covenent is due again to our sin. God can not tolerate sin in his Holy presence. God's presence with Israel dwelt with the Ark of the Covenent. Even the High Priest could only enter once a year into the most Holy place of the Tabernacle except once a year on the day of atonement. Leviticus 16:2. When the Priest entered he would tie a rope around his waist in the event he was unclean in the presence of God and be struck dead. The Philistenes also suffered loss large loss of life due to the Ark being in their possesion. 1 Samuel 5 tells this account. Exodus 3:5 is another example of God's awesome holiness. Even today ourselves just to aproach God in prayer we require the atonement of Jesus as a mediator. We cannot directly contact God in our sinful state or be in his presence with sin.

Their is another factor to Uzzah's death as well although sin was the root issue. The sons of Kohath were to carry the Ark upon their shoulders(Numbers 7:9) not place it in a cart as something insignificant. God was merciful enough on the Philistenes for doing so out of their lack of ignorance in not knowing better. God did not desire to see Uzzah die but it was a consequence of an action. God's Holiness is not something to be trampled on. Abraham in Genesis 18:27 in meeting with God cried "I am nothing but dust and ashes" Isaiah 6:5 in which the prophet states "Woe to me! I cried. I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips and my eyes have seen the King the Lord Almighty" Peter in Luke 5:8 begged Jesus following his witness of a miracle "Go away from me Lord; I am a sinful man." Revelation 4:8 "Holy Holy Holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come" Even the Seraphim who were Holy elect Angels used two wings to cover their face before God's Holy presence. For one who has this awe for the holiness of God it is not hard to accept the account of Uzzah. 1 Peter 1:13-16 Luckily we have a High Priest Christ that has bridged the gap of sin and we can come before God.

One can take what view they prefer as to the qualities of God but if one looks deeply at the forementioned accounts that were listed and is academically honest by taking it in context, the results were due to consequence of action on account of human imperfection not God.

As to why God declared them rightous or even ones today after we sin is he is also a loving God that gives the gift of grace. No one can stand before God without blemish but through atonement we are given the chance. Whether we feel it justified to forgive a sinner is not upto our faculty of judgement. We as humans do a poor job of judgement, just look at our court systems for an example.

You are correct in religion being resposible for bloodshed but remember that is religion. God is not religion. Jesus is my savior not my religion. Organized religion is a whole seperate entity from God. As for declaring Churches being full of pedophiles, I think that retort it is quite stereotypical. While there are obviously pedophiles in Churches I would question whether the incubating factor is their being associated with a Church no more then an atheist pedophile not being associated with one. The problem probably lies outside of both those agency spheres(except in the case of Church Doctrine which would promote pedophilia such as illustrated with the "Shepard your Flock" doctrine of the Watchtower. Then of course understandably a huge responsibility lies with the Church for condoning this environment.). Unless I stand corrected by a census I can't say I know it's a fact.

179

athiest this is for you!

by unstopableravens in

i have to give props to most athiest on jwn, for one thing, you guys dont run away, i have been having discussions on youtube with jw and it is so frustrating.

what makes it frustrating is unlike me and athiest ,the jw and myself both claim the same thing that the bible is gods word, almost everytime i get into a discussion with one they make a claim i show them bible verse and they have no answer, so they attack me other than the point i bring up, than they say om under satan control, all for just using the bible.

than they say not to contact them anymore.

Ticker

I think the problem we as humans have with these examples of God's forgiveness is we try to catergorize sin. We feel different levels of sin merits different punishment. The fact is all sin is worthy of death. Whether you commit one sin or you committed many grave serious sins the punishment is the same. Just like the Jews - if you kept 1 law and broke 612 or kept 612 and broke 1 it was the same to God, worthy of death. We all are sinners but thank God for the gift of Grace or we would all be condemned before God's perfect holiness.

179

athiest this is for you!

by unstopableravens in

i have to give props to most athiest on jwn, for one thing, you guys dont run away, i have been having discussions on youtube with jw and it is so frustrating.

what makes it frustrating is unlike me and athiest ,the jw and myself both claim the same thing that the bible is gods word, almost everytime i get into a discussion with one they make a claim i show them bible verse and they have no answer, so they attack me other than the point i bring up, than they say om under satan control, all for just using the bible.

than they say not to contact them anymore.

Ticker

Saul's request for foreskins had nothing to do with God. God did not request the foreskins but Saul did. Saul was not in the best moral standing himself and such a depraved request would probably not be surprising. God doesn't control every action someone does but he lets us use free will to decide how we will act. If he didn't then it would go against God's whole being.

It's similar with Abraham taking Hagar for a wife upon Sarah's request due to their lack of faith that God would produce a seed through Sarah. They tried to implement God's plan with their own hands and bad resulted from it. God allowed it but didn't put his stamp of approval on it. He formed the original union to be man and wife not wives. This was always the intent but humanity in a sinful state fell short of these ideals.

I'll just touch on one of your points as my time is limited due to various other matters in my day. With the death of David and Bathsheba's son it was a consequence of the action but not the punishment. Many other unsavory results fell upon David due to his incorrect choice. The problem was the violation of God's law, the hypocrisy was observed by other nations, and God was dishonored. Paul also made this same charge against the Jews centuries late in Romans 2:21-24 David's triumphs and equally or perhaps great his sins were widely noted by gentile nations. Had nothing resulted from the matter the other nations might have reasoned that if God doesn't deal with the sin of his saints neither will he care of ours. This would result in a mockery of God as they would have confidence in getting away with their sins.

Now the penalty of the sin was not the death of David's child but rather a consequence. David's penalty was rightly death! David realized his sin upon God's disclosure through Nathan's discourse and repented. He continues in lamentation of repentance during his childs illness. He had faith in God's soveriegnty and this faith was put into action by his repentance. Unfortunetly the child born in sin does pass away but notice the comfort found in 2 Samuel 12:23 - "But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him but he shall not return to me." After this passage David gets up, washes, annoints himself, changes his clothes, and goes to praise God. We might find this strange but I think David found solace in the death of his son because of the assurance that he while the child may not return to be with him in life he would be with the child in heaven.

We also get an insight into God's view of Children in the Old Testament at Jonah 4:5-11. It is made clear to Jonah that he does not desire to bring wrath upon 120,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand. Nor is the desire even for animals to perish. Those who can't reason such as animals or children who don't know the difference between right and left hand are differentiated from those who can make a logical free will choice. The desire of God is not to destroy the Ninevite children and he rebukes Jonah for being angry at his Grace upon them.

Also according to the Old and New Testaments children are not to suffer divine condemnation for their parents. Deuteronomy 24:16 - "Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for their own sin." Jeremiah 31:30 - "everyone will die for his own iniquity" The bible is clear that we all have sin by nature even upon our birth as sin entered through Adam and Eve. This foundation is layed in Romans Chapters 1-3. However their is distinction in being a sinner by nature and sinner by deed. Romans 7 speaks of being alive apart from the law and then being alive to the law. Specifically Romans 7:9 - "I was once alive apart from the law. but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died." The seems to indicate an age of accountability and would coincide with God's view of the Ninevite children. At what age one is accountable is unknown nor may it be the same for everyone.

I think the real key to this whole point is whether we die as an infant or as an adult we all require the Salvation from sin through Jesus the Christ. Also we know God loves children and doesn't judge them for anothers sins. Even Jesus loved the little children. While this seems a horrific event for David's child we find encouragement that God has bestowed his grace upon all even that little child. God's gave up his own Son for us as a portrayal of his love for us. - John 3:16 Jesus died in a very horific manner but it demonstrates the perfection of God's holiness. We can not understand the perfection of God in our state and find it hard to comprehend but more importantly we have been given the undeserved gift of Grace through Jesus.

41

YouTube Series on Salvation and what it actually is for JW's, Mormons, SDA

by Ticker in

thank you for taking the time to check out my post,.

i wanted to bring a series of youtube videos to anyones attention that has interest in learning about salvation through the lord jesus christ in contrast to what the watchtower, mormons, sda, baha'i and other similar legalistic works based relgions teach.

i think it would be beneficial for ones who may be questioning or want to be better equiped in reaching jw's with the gospel message.

Ticker

Interested one,

I didn't make the claim rather God does. Since I couldn't disprove that sin causes death and in my opinion science gives support to it being a possible I put faith that the creator would get that right. Trust me like yourself I do question everything and I'm not afraid to explore all views. For me the cause of death being sin is a logical explanation that can harmonize with science quite nicely, albeit it requires an element of faith. Unfortunately it's something I can't say that God said in so and so scripture that the method of choice was to cause DNA to deteriorate causing death as a result of sin, no more then I could say science proves sin doesn't cause death. The element of faith is still required either direction one decides to take.

I respect your view and thank you again for your question as well as your valuable contribution to the topic. It was an intelligent query and I hope that I was clear enough in my attempt to answer.

132

who are your favorite preachers? here a few of mine!

by unstopableravens in

since leaving the wt, i have spoted so many false teachers from osteen to creflo dollar, but there is some great men of god who speak truth,who arnt afraid to proclaim the gospel, and who dont cater to tickling mens ears my three favorite are paul washer, steve lawson and john piper.

who are yours?.

Ticker

I don't think this person counts exactly as the steriotypical preacher but I found his two series very informative for Christians. His name is Mark Fairley and he has the "Know your Enemy" and "Fuel Project" series on YouTube. There is one episode specifically on Jehovah's Witnesses from the Know your Enemy series that is well done. They were worth the watch for me as I gained a lot of good knowledge and encouragement.

Francis Chan was already mentioned but I like him also. Great energy and love for God.

Shawn McCraney is interesting. Seen a few of his shows and they are low key down to earth and aimed at helping Mormons to come to Jesus.

41

YouTube Series on Salvation and what it actually is for JW's, Mormons, SDA

by Ticker in

thank you for taking the time to check out my post,.

i wanted to bring a series of youtube videos to anyones attention that has interest in learning about salvation through the lord jesus christ in contrast to what the watchtower, mormons, sda, baha'i and other similar legalistic works based relgions teach.

i think it would be beneficial for ones who may be questioning or want to be better equiped in reaching jw's with the gospel message.

Ticker

InterestedOne,

Thanks for your question and I hope this addresses it properly or clarifies my original reply to it.

I responded that I put faith in the Bible as to why sin leads to death. I also put faith in God's redemption from Sin through Jesus Christ much the same. For me that works but I also to the best of my ability gave some reasoning from science as to why sin might result in death. I'm not a learned person or a pundit of science but I mentioned the Law of Thermodynamics. That was just a speculation on my part as the Bible makes no mention nor does science have a conclusive answer itself as to why we biologically degrade other then Chromosomes deteriorate over time. Their is no scientific explanation that I'm aware of as to why genes are effected by this erosion. A possibility although completely speculation on my part is that we were made accountable to the Law of Thermodynamics due to sin and thus our bodies deteriorate with death being the end result. However obviously I can not prove it to be an absolute answer.

While I must rely on faith that some things are so, science apart from God also requires a very similar faith. There is the "theory of aging" split again between two views, "Free Radical" and "DNA Damage" but again all this can still be accepted with an acknowledgement of a creator.

So given the knowledge of science that our bodies break down due to either free radical or DNA deterioration and harmonizing it with a belief in God, it would seem rational that God has allowed us in our sinful state to die. Since it is not spelled out in any scripture as to exactly the process used or allowded to lead to death from sin I can not state specifically why just as science can not give definate cause. We all know it happens but exactly why our chromosomes break down instead of perpetually regenerating is unknown as far as I honestly can tell. Putting faith in the bible that is is resultant from sin is no more difficult then accepting it is a process of a life cycle. Both still fail to determine exactly why.

That is about as well as I can respond to your question and I don't think it weakens the standpoint of believing in theism contrast to atheism. If I discover a better answer I will be sure to update.

Now I ask if you can show evidence that death is not due to sin?

41

YouTube Series on Salvation and what it actually is for JW's, Mormons, SDA

by Ticker in

thank you for taking the time to check out my post,.

i wanted to bring a series of youtube videos to anyones attention that has interest in learning about salvation through the lord jesus christ in contrast to what the watchtower, mormons, sda, baha'i and other similar legalistic works based relgions teach.

i think it would be beneficial for ones who may be questioning or want to be better equiped in reaching jw's with the gospel message.

Ticker

@ Caliber and Searril

No problem, glad you enjoyed them and found them helpful. The work was worth it then.

@ InterestedOne and Designs

From the bible account of Adam and Eve we find that sin entered from disobedience to God. The result of sin was death. (Romans 5:12,17; Romans 6:23; Romans 8:19-22) Those with belief in God have no issue putting faith in this. (Hebrews 11:1) Their faith is built upon a relationship with God, being intimate with him through the bible, through personal experience of his blessings, active exchange of prayer that is answered, creation that abounds, examples of present and past followers of God who demonstrate faith and it's outcome, etc..

Now obviously for someone who disregards the authenticity of God this type of faith holds little merit. Many lay faith in science and theory(not meaning hypothesis) The term "scientific theory" refers to a "well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment." My disclosure is I'm not an expert in the field of science but will try my best. I did a bit of research into this from a scientific viewpoint. To put this into a scientific perspective of the question "why does sin result in death" we can mull over a couple of quick points.

In principal biological immortality is theoretically possible. If you provide a cell the metabolites and nutrients it needs to survive there is no reason why it's lineage should die out. Cells divide, replace older cells in a never-ending process but for some unknown reason they just stop. The most widely accepted theory is most Chromosomes (Telomere) deteriorate over time. (See Telomere restoration) Active genes become affected by this erosion. There is also "programmed cell death" now known to occur. Cells respond to signals we do not yet recognize and essentially die on a pre-programmed schedule. Lab tests on plants have shown seperating the signalling mechanism from the wound-response tissue called callus allows the callus to grow indefinitely in tissue culture. Man has yet to conclusively determine why this process of degeneration occurs.

Now this is just a thought of mine and nothing more but could God have made us subject to the "Second Law of Thermodynamics"(Law of Decay)? This law states "every system left to it's own devices always tends to move from order to disorder, its energy tending to be transformed into lower levels of availability, finally reaching the state of complete randomness and unavailibility for further work." This seems very similar to present human life and the aging process. As a Christian I believe that God is the master of the laws of science and could easily make us subject to whatever law he liked.

What I know of the Universe and it's workings is everything is intricately balanced. Everything has order. Planets, our own DNA, everything imaginable have specific order not randomness. Without this order and governence of scientific law none of what we know would be possible. Can we even begin to fathom that such order would result from mass chaos? Obviously many do put faith in that however it requires just as much faith in things unseen. Science has tried to explain and simulate how life could have evolved from innanimate matter to living matter for many years without success. Since the middle ages sciencetific experiments have attemped to produce spontanious generation. Miller/Fox experiments in the 1950's also could not produce life from inanimate matter. In my opinion just as much faith is required to believe evolution. How many people actually question evolution for it's proof prior to disregarding God or do many just accept it due to it's promotion as academically acceptable?

So to segway back to the question of what proof do I have, I would ask the same question in response to evolution and life from chaos.

I'm not wanting to stir up a creation/evolution argument nor discredit anyones beliefs, however I ask that one be fair in having such certainty that creation is not possible. I strongly believe it is not only possible but compelling. Science and God in my opinion can co-exist quite easily without one contradicting the other. Some Christians are quite comfortable with the though of an evolutionary process while still accepting God as a Creator. Please feel free to show me otherwise and I will respectfully listen but I think their is a plethora of information on the internet that can be examined to support my belief.

For lack of knowledge I do not know nor want to prejudge but may I assume you are atheist but were at one time a believer in God? May I respectfully ask what confirmed your acceptance of atheism vs. theism? What lead to discounting God as a possibility?

41

YouTube Series on Salvation and what it actually is for JW's, Mormons, SDA

by Ticker in

thank you for taking the time to check out my post,.

i wanted to bring a series of youtube videos to anyones attention that has interest in learning about salvation through the lord jesus christ in contrast to what the watchtower, mormons, sda, baha'i and other similar legalistic works based relgions teach.

i think it would be beneficial for ones who may be questioning or want to be better equiped in reaching jw's with the gospel message.

Ticker

@ Design

It's okay, it's good to ask questions, in fact I'd encourage it as not enough people question but rather swallow views presented without first determining the evidence to prove it so. That's why some are at this very site after having bought into a fabricated vision based upon an organizations dogma. Also considering that many religous people are quick to judge or condemn I can understand the gut response that some have or even why many have been turned off from God. Sometimes Religion can be God's worst enemy and shoot itself in the foot. Instead of realizing that "Jesus is my Savior not my Religion" many so called Christians condemn their fellow people because they don't go to Church or a certain brand or denomination.

They can also get pre-occupied with pettiness on morally neutral issues such as wearing blue jeans and sandals or wearing a suit and tie to a Sunday sermon. Or possibly they don't like live guitars and drums in worship but like ritualistic pre-recorded music. Maybe they think beards are wrong in God's eyes, long hair is bad, piercings are wrong, the list can go on forever... In reality none of these things matter as they are all morally neutral. It's not the clothing, guitar, or facial hair that is bad or good. Rather it is how those things are used.

You can use a guitar to play songs of praise or you can use it to rave hatred but the instrument itself is morally neutral in God's eyes. If you want to wear jeans to Sunday service then praise God, if you want to wear a suit then praise God, if you want to worship at home a small group of friends with no Church affiliation then praise God. Jesus didn't go to seek out the self rightous hypocrites but rather to call the weak and sick. He dwelt with sinners and had compassion for these ones as they had hearts that were healable and not hardened like the pharisees.

The way the Pharisee's enforced the Jewish and Oral Law's with a lack of compassion is what turned the people off to God back in ancient Israel. Jesus came to set the example and in doing so exposed them as hypocrites binding heavy loads but unwilling to lift a finger to move them. Matthew 23:4 This very thing same thing today is turning people off to religion. All the pettiness and laws they try to enforce on morally neutral things bind up heavy loads and they fail to show compassion.

Not to scare anyone as most Churches don't judge anyone over these things but all people are imperfect none the less. I find these types of problems fester much more in the organized legalistic law based religions Such as Jehovah's Witness and Mormon denominations for two examples. Church can be a great thing for encouragement or to build a social network of friends but men will always disapoint and as with anything politics can arise. Still if you keep in mind that no religion or church can bring salvation and that it is only found through a one on one with Christ you can navigate quite well and really enjoy fine fellowship with fellow Christians.

The biased picture that the Watchtower depicts of born again Christians is as false as their failed prophecy. I found most Christians to be very sincere in their faith and it was routed in Christ not an organization, pastor, governing body, etc.. Also the love in many churches is genuine and they don't ex communicate ones but rather seek to lovingly support any having trouble with sin no matter what it is. Why would you cut off a sick one needing help by disfellowshipping them, do not the sick need a physician? - Luke 5:31 They offer various care groups, youth ministry that is engaging with activities such as catching a movie in the theatre or camping as a group, charitable acts to help the less fortunate no matter who they are, and all this is open to anyone. You don't have to have a certain track record or reach a status quo. We all sin and to think we are more deserving then another just because we think we sin less is a great misconception. Sin to God is equal as well and no sin outweighs another. To feel we can work our salvation is a great error. Ephesians 2:9 Romans 11:6 Without grace we would never have a chance to gain reconciliation with God in all his perfect holiness.

So yes in my long winded answer which I hope you forgive me for , I can understand your position on God and I apologize for the hurt religion has caused you and others, in my heart I know Jesus would never have wished that upon anyone. I feel he would have used the same words on many of the religous leaders today as he did on the pharisees.

@ Interested One

Salvation for the whole world from death due to inherited sin. Romans 5:12,21 John 3:16 Isaiah 46:13 Salvation is not a term used often if at all by the Watchtower. They do not promote the idea of salvation through Christ by Grace for obvious confliction with their works based score card redemption. In fact they vehemently attack and slander God's gift of Grace at every given opportunity. One of their key components is this is taking James chapter 2 out of context. When you put it in proper context their arguments becomes very thin and falls apart. Thus like Band on the Run commented, it is so useful for ones to have some working knowledge of the bible to thwart such deceptions.

41

YouTube Series on Salvation and what it actually is for JW's, Mormons, SDA

by Ticker in

thank you for taking the time to check out my post,.

i wanted to bring a series of youtube videos to anyones attention that has interest in learning about salvation through the lord jesus christ in contrast to what the watchtower, mormons, sda, baha'i and other similar legalistic works based relgions teach.

i think it would be beneficial for ones who may be questioning or want to be better equiped in reaching jw's with the gospel message.

Ticker

@ Designs

I mean no disrespect in saying an atheist would not be a breathren of Christ. Since atheism denies belief that Christ is what he claimed would it not kinda self defeat the thought of being his breathren (which by the way is okay, it is ones choice and their entitled to it) I think thats self explanatory. As for judging Christians don't personally judge anyone, all we do is present the Gospel and it's up to the recipient to do whatever they please. We don't know if they are wrong or right or how God would judge them. We don't know how God would judge anyones heart. Each one will stand before Christ on his own. As for any conviction that is upto God's Holy Spirit, it will convict one to do what is correct. No amount of judging or prodding by men would create a satisfactory spiritual heart. Anyone who was familar with the Watchtowers methods will know this doesn't work.

Anyways this is getting off topic and would like to focus back on the original intent. Thanks though for asking it's been very good and those are legitimate questions to have that are worth asking. Perhaps another thread would be better to start for more discussion.

@Band on the Run

Couldn't agree with you more. Controlling ones view or imposing doctrine on them is dangerous and leads to the devestation we have all witnessed at the hand of such regimes. Many fall prey to these organizations due to lack of biblical knowledge. Good hearted people searching for God but lacking in basic Christian theology. Even if they just had the basic shell of knowledge it would better equip them to ward off such ones.

Thank you your point was well made.