Not for my family, for they aren't "model" JWs (though my mum and my sister try to be). I think it might just be the Lower Mainland area that doesn't pressure people to get baptised young (I've known many elders' kids who get baptised around 17-18 years old).
the_classicist
JoinedPosts by the_classicist
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69
The Young Witness Exodus Continues
by metatron ini just found out that , on my wife's side of the family, the last witness kid has given up!.
he was the very last one in that half of our extended witness family.
ten years ago, i never would have.
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Did you believe that the "Pope" was infalliable when you were Catholic?
by booker-t inmy roman catholic aunt has been a "devout" catholic for over 30 years and when the pope recently became ill she told me that god would not allow the pope to die but would take him directly to heaven because the pope is sinless.
i am not familar with catholic doctrines so i was caught off guard with my aunt but for any posters out there that were devout catholics like my aunt do catholics really believe that the pope is without sin and cannot die?
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the_classicist
I'm a Catholic now (raised JW). And NO, Catholic do not believe that. The First Vatican Coucil states that when the Pope makes a pronouncement, as Shepherd of the Universal Church on matters of faith and morals, he is infallible (he is not infallible in judicial or liturgical or any other matters). For a clear definition of papal infallibility click here. I am not aware of single Catholic that would believe that Pope John Paul II is sinless or that he would be assumed into heaven once he was dead; plus it's contrary to Catholic dogma and commonsense.
Have a good day,
The Classicist.
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Jude and 1 Enoch
by Leolaia inuse of 1 enoch elsewhere in jude.
jude 4 = 1 enoch 48:8-10, 81:1-2, 108:6-7 .
jude 6 = 1 enoch 10:4-12, 12:4, 15:3-7 .
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the_classicist
Leolaia... Personally, I believe in the 73 book canon, but I'm also open to the traditional Orthodox Church canon as being something of value. I also read in a bible commentary that use of the Book of Enoch by Jude just shows how much debate there was in the Early Church about what should be in the canon, although they said it in a much more elequent way than I have just paraphrased.
PS. You might want to check out The Apostolic Fathers (in two volumes) published by the Loeb Classical Library. It includes the Shepard of Hermas, which was a interesting, slightly esoteric (in the sense that some meanings are obscure) writing which includes visions, parables, and commandments.
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69
The Young Witness Exodus Continues
by metatron ini just found out that , on my wife's side of the family, the last witness kid has given up!.
he was the very last one in that half of our extended witness family.
ten years ago, i never would have.
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the_classicist
I don't know about an "Exodus." My older sister, 20 years, just got baptised. Sometimes she can be a real bitch when she's playing righteous JW (with an illogic that would make Aristotle spin in his grave, if he probably wasn't disintegrated by now). Most, especially elders children, really "act out" whilst still going to the meetings and then they eventually settle for the drudgery of JW life. I know of one person, an elder's daughter, who got her license suspended for driving drunk. THEN she got arrested for driving drunk without a license. I don't know if she ever faced a JC, and I hope not either as I would be a drunk if I still had to do 5 hours of meetings a week plus a minimum of 8 hours in "Field Service."
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the_classicist
Well, I shouldn't have pressed the enter button....
The full title should read "The Greatest Man Who Ever Live."
Now what I was going to say was that the JWs contend that Jesus is the greatest man who ever lived, especially being the Son of God and Michael the Archangel incarnate. But what about Luke 7:28, I have NEVER heard this one read aloud or quoted in the KH or anywhere else.
I tell you, among those born of women no one is greater than John; yet the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.?
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"We only believe what the Bible says" or Help Refute a Common JW Claim
by Check_Your_Premises ini am presently trying to get my wife to not drink the kool-aid (get baptized).
i have been pointing out to her that her and all jw beliefs come from the interpretation of scripture provided by the gb, and the inherent problems/contradictions therof.
they say something like, "we don't put the gb on a pedestal or anything, we believe what we believe because it is in the bible, not because the gb is telling us to believe it.".
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the_classicist
Hold on, let me fix that. (just imagine the quotations box being there ).
Among other things, the WTS predicted the following:
1889 "The ?battle of the great day of God almighty? (Rev 16:14) which will end in AD 1914 . . . " (Studies, Vol. 2, 1908 edition, 101). 1891 "With the end of AD 1914, what God calls Babylon, and what men call Christendom, will have passed away, as already shown from prophecy" (Studies, Vol. 3, 153). 1894 "The end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble" (WT Reprints, 1-1-1894, 1605 and 1677). 1897 "Our Lord is now present, since October 1874 AD" (Studies, Vol. 4, 1897 edition, 621). 1916 "The six great 1000 year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th day, the 1000 years of Christ?s reign began in 1873" (Studies, Vol. 2, p. 2 of foreword). 1917 "Scriptures . . . prove that the Lord?s Second Advent occurred in the fall of 1874" (Studies, Vol. 7, 68). 1918 "Therefore, we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the faithful prophets of old" (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 89). 1922 "The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the scriptures than 1914" (WT, 9-1-1922, 262). 1923 "1925 is definitely settled by the scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge" (WT, 4-1-1923, 106). 1925 "The year of 1925 is here. . . . Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year" (WT, 1-1-1925, 3). 1931 "There was a measure of disappointment on the part of Jehovah?s faithful ones on earth concerning the dates 1914, 1918, & 1925 . . . and they also learned to quit fixing dates" (Vindication, 388, 389). 1939 "The disaster of Armageddon is just ahead" (Salvation, 361). 1941 "Armageddon is surely near . . . soon . . . within a few years" (Children, 10). 1946 "Armageddon . . . should come sometime before 1972" (They Have Found a Faith, 44). 1966 "Six thousand years from man?s creation will end in 1975, and the seventh period of a thousand years of human history will begin in the fall of 1975 C.E" (Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God, 29). 1968 "The end of the six thousand years of man?s history in the fall of 1975 is not tentative, but is accepted as a certain date" (WT, 1-1-1968, 271).
Besides false prophesies, the WTS has misled its members through countless changes in doctrine and practice:
"To worship Christ in any form cannot be wrong ... " (WT, 3-1880, 83). "It is unscriptural for worshippers of the living and true God to render worship to the Son of God, Jesus Christ" (WT, 11-1-1964, 671).
The men of Sodom will be resurrected (WT, 7-1879, 7-8). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (WT, 6-1-1952, 338). The men of Sodom will be resurrected (WT 8-1-1965, 479). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (WT 6-1-1988, 31). The men of Sodom will be resurrected (Live Forever, early ed., 179). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (Live Forever, later ed., 179). The men of Sodom will be resurrected (Insight on the Scriptures, Vol. 2, 985). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (Revelation: Its Grand Climax at Hand! 273).
"There could be nothing against our consciences in going into the army" (WT, 4-15-1903, 120). Due to conscience, Jehovah?s Witnesses must refuse military service (WT, 2-1-1951, 73).
"We may as well join in with the civilized world in celebrating the grand event [Christmas] . . . " (WT Reprints, 12-1-1904, 3468). "Christmas and its music are not from Jehovah . . . What is their source? . . . Satan the devil" (WT, 12-15-1983, 7).
"Everyone in America should take pleasure in displaying the American flag" (WT Reprints, 5-15-1917, 6068). The flag is "an idolatrous symbol" (Awake!, 9-8-71, 14).
A much longer list of such contradictions and doctrinal twists by the WTS could be formed, but this suffices to remove any reason one might have to believe that "It is through the columns of The Watchtower that Jehovah provides direction and constant scriptural counsel to his people . . . " (WT, 5-1-1964, 277). If that is the case, who is to say what will be taught tomorrow? -
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"We only believe what the Bible says" or Help Refute a Common JW Claim
by Check_Your_Premises ini am presently trying to get my wife to not drink the kool-aid (get baptized).
i have been pointing out to her that her and all jw beliefs come from the interpretation of scripture provided by the gb, and the inherent problems/contradictions therof.
they say something like, "we don't put the gb on a pedestal or anything, we believe what we believe because it is in the bible, not because the gb is telling us to believe it.".
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the_classicist
First thing to remember is that the JWs have been indirectly (through their publications) training your wife to believe that "Satan's system of things" (of which you are a part of) is trying to keep him or her away from the "truth."
First thing to do is to point out all the false prophecies that these people have made. This list is taken from catholic.com:
Among other things, the WTS predicted the following:
1889 "The ?battle of the great day of God almighty? (Rev 16:14) which will end in AD 1914 . . . " (Studies, Vol. 2, 1908 edition, 101). 1891 "With the end of AD 1914, what God calls Babylon, and what men call Christendom, will have passed away, as already shown from prophecy" (Studies, Vol. 3, 153). 1894 "The end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble" (WT Reprints, 1-1-1894, 1605 and 1677). 1897 "Our Lord is now present, since October 1874 AD" (Studies, Vol. 4, 1897 edition, 621). 1916 "The six great 1000 year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th day, the 1000 years of Christ?s reign began in 1873" (Studies, Vol. 2, p. 2 of foreword). 1917 "Scriptures . . . prove that the Lord?s Second Advent occurred in the fall of 1874" (Studies, Vol. 7, 68). 1918 "Therefore, we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the faithful prophets of old" (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 89). 1922 "The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the scriptures than 1914" (WT, 9-1-1922, 262). 1923 "1925 is definitely settled by the scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge" (WT, 4-1-1923, 106). 1925 "The year of 1925 is here. . . . Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year" (WT, 1-1-1925, 3). 1931 "There was a measure of disappointment on the part of Jehovah?s faithful ones on earth concerning the dates 1914, 1918, & 1925 . . . and they also learned to quit fixing dates" (Vindication, 388, 389). 1939 "The disaster of Armageddon is just ahead" (Salvation, 361). 1941 "Armageddon is surely near . . . soon . . . within a few years" (Children, 10). 1946 "Armageddon . . . should come sometime before 1972" (They Have Found a Faith, 44). 1966 "Six thousand years from man?s creation will end in 1975, and the seventh period of a thousand years of human history will begin in the fall of 1975 C.E" (Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God, 29). 1968 "The end of the six thousand years of man?s history in the fall of 1975 is not tentative, but is accepted as a certain date" (WT, 1-1-1968, 271).
Besides false prophesies, the WTS has misled its members through countless changes in doctrine and practice:
"To worship Christ in any form cannot be wrong ... " (WT, 3-1880, 83). "It is unscriptural for worshippers of the living and true God to render worship to the Son of God, Jesus Christ" (WT, 11-1-1964, 671).
The men of Sodom will be resurrected (WT, 7-1879, 7-8). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (WT, 6-1-1952, 338). The men of Sodom will be resurrected (WT 8-1-1965, 479). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (WT 6-1-1988, 31). The men of Sodom will be resurrected (Live Forever, early ed., 179). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (Live Forever, later ed., 179). The men of Sodom will be resurrected (Insight on the Scriptures, Vol. 2, 985). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (Revelation: Its Grand Climax at Hand! 273).
"There could be nothing against our consciences in going into the army" (WT, 4-15-1903, 120). Due to conscience, Jehovah?s Witnesses must refuse military service (WT, 2-1-1951, 73).
"We may as well join in with the civilized world in celebrating the grand event [Christmas] . . . " (WT Reprints, 12-1-1904, 3468). "Christmas and its music are not from Jehovah . . . What is their source? . . . Satan the devil" (WT, 12-15-1983, 7).
"Everyone in America should take pleasure in displaying the American flag" (WT Reprints, 5-15-1917, 6068). The flag is "an idolatrous symbol" (Awake!, 9-8-71, 14).
A much longer list of such contradictions and doctrinal twists by the WTS could be formed, but this suffices to remove any reason one might have to believe that "It is through the columns of The Watchtower that Jehovah provides direction and constant scriptural counsel to his people . . . " (WT, 5-1-1964, 277). If that is the case, who is to say what will be taught tomorrow?Hope this helps.
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the JW approach to sexual abuse
by spopeislandstyle ini was molested by a brother in my congregation when i was nine years old.
when i told my mother she went directly to a family friend and respected elder to seek advise.
a couple days later, he and another elder made a visit to our home and questioned me for hours.
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the_classicist
Salutations to spopeislandstyle.
First of all... well I suppose words can never make you feel better about such things, so I won't try (especially since I'm not good at words).
But what I can tell you is yes, it is very common. There are several close relatives in my family who were abused by a paedophile (who was also in the family, rather horrible, and who was a JW too -- given the chance I think I'd have him "taken care of" if you know what I mean). The "Elders" of the congregation typically do not call the police in to investigate, probably because they're on secret orders not to from Brooklyn (this is my theory, or maybe they don't want to "bring reproach upon Jehovah's name" by having a JW arrested and tried). He was disfellowshipped too, but it was because there were more than two victims (usually they don't disfellowship without two witnesses to what happened). But the Judicial Committee didn't call the police. Last I heard, he married a women who couldn't speak English and had another daughter who "acted strangely." The police got involved, but the Crown decided not to prosecute because the case was more than 10 years old. As far as I know, he never got involved with the Jehovah's Witnesses again, though.
If you wish to be proactive about this individual, I would suggest getting a copy of his criminal record and post it to all the people in the congregation (like on winsheilds, or get the congregation address list and send it to each person; which you can do anonymously). If that doesn't sufficiently ostracize him... I could think of more ways to make this individual's life a living hell. He, and the rest of those paedophiles, should spend the rest of their lives in the desert, fasting, asking for forgiveness.
Anyway... Welcome to the Board!
The Classicist
PS. I don't know if it's legal to make public someone's criminal record, although I can think of many more ways to destroy a person's, like this one's, life.
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7
Blood Forms
by the_classicist ini was able to get my hands on these forms published by the wtbs in canada, as far as i know, you're free to use them and post them (i don't see no copyright
http://ca.geocities.com/in_defensione_ecclesiae/1.jpg
http://ca.geocities.com/in_defensione_ecclesiae/2.jpg
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