Nate said,
I can take either side in the debate and win.
Although I am with you on your FINAL opinion on the bible ....
I must admit, if you took the JW argument and went up against any real Greek scholar you would lose badly.
-ithinkisee
ithinkisee
JoinedPosts by ithinkisee
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221
Was Jesus the first creation.
by ajie inas i mentioned in my last post that im studying the book what the bible really teaches,anyway im now on the bit about who is jesus,now it uses the scripture col1:15 does this prove he was created where it says hes the firstborn.
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ithinkisee
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ithinkisee
This is spooning:
http://sc.msn.com/3E/9VPG7%60B9!4_IK@,A%[email protected]
I hope I don't have to show a picture of what "forking" is.
-ithinkisee
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221
Was Jesus the first creation.
by ajie inas i mentioned in my last post that im studying the book what the bible really teaches,anyway im now on the bit about who is jesus,now it uses the scripture col1:15 does this prove he was created where it says hes the firstborn.
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ithinkisee
There is a Greek word for "first created" and it was in use at the time of Paul's writing to the Colossians. He did not use it here. The Greek for "firstborn" is proto with tikto which would give us "firstborn" and that is what we find here in Colossians 1:15. The Greek for "first created" would be proto with ktizo and it is not used here.
Interestingly, "firstborn" doesn't always mean "first one born" in the scriptures, and in many translations isn't even rendered "firstborn", but instead, "deserving one" or "pre-eminent one".
As an example:
(Genesis 41:51-52 NWT) 51 So Joseph called the name of the firstborn Ma·nas´seh, because, to quote him, “God has made me forget all my trouble and all the house of my father.” 52 And the name of the second he called E´phra·im, because, to quote him, “God has made me fruitful in the land of my wretchedness.”
Notice who the firstborn here is: Manasseh. Right? But read on in Jeremiah:
(Jeremiah 31:9 NWT) 9 With weeping they will come, and with [their] entreaties for favor I shall bring them. I shall make them walk to torrent valleys of water, in a right way in which they will not be caused to stumble. For I have become to Israel a Father; and as for E´phra·im, he is my firstborn.”
Looks like Jehovah pulled a switcheroo! Now Ephraim is the firstborn. Not because he was the "first one born", but because he was the "deserving one". The same is true when Jehovah spoke of David:
(Psalm 89:20 NWT) I have found David my servant; With my holy oil I have anointed him,
(Psalm 89:27 NWT) Also, I myself shall place him as firstborn, The most high of the kings of the earth.David was certainly NOT the first one born - not even in his own fleshly family! But he was the "deserving one". Now let's go back
(Colossians 1:15) 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. . .
When read in context with the rest of scripture as a Trinitarian, it actually doesn't conflict at all. From their viewpoint, Jesus was the pre-eminent one over all creation and scripture supports this!
Other Translations:
(Col 1:15 CEV) Christ is exactly like God, who cannot be seen. He is the first-born Son, superior to all creation.
(Col 1:15 ALT) who is [the] image of the invisible God, first-born of [fig., existing before] all creation,
(Col 1:15 NIV) 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Colossians 1:15-17 (Wycliffe New Testament) 15 Which is the image of God invisible, the first begotten of each creature.
Colossians 1:15-17 (New Living Translation) 15Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before God made anything at all and is supreme over all creation.
Another example where firstborn does not mean "first one borne" is just three verses later, in Colossians 1:18:
(Colossians 1:18 NWT) 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things;
Jesus wasn't "first" from the dead! Lazarus was resurrected before Jesus (and others). But Jesus certainly was the PREEMINENT ONE raised from the dead!
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I am not really a big believer in the whole Christian thing at the moment, but it is utterly shocking to me how the JWs would misrepresent real Christianity so shamelessly!
-ithinkisee
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Why Christianity is all about judgement!
by free2beme inthis joke was written by the comedian emo phillips.
what makes it funny is that it captures christianity to the exact point we all should know.
enjoy .... voted the funniest religious joke of all time.
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ithinkisee
I have attended more than five, and it is a comment I have heard from more than one non-JW Christian - including the pastor of an all-black baptist church!
Although I will admit, that it is often said - not out of disgust - but just out of the fact that we are humans as such tend to do things like this - supposedly.
That being said, I'm not saying ALL Christians are racist or arrogant about their god. But on the other hand, CHristians should not say that NONE or even "only a few" are like that - because it is not true. Actually, one of the things that began to spin my wheels of cognitive dissonance was how sincere non-JW Christians are about their religion - as a JW I was always taught that Christendom's religious beliefs were all superficial, social, and insincere. When that last pope died and I began hearing and reading condolences and words of gratitude from people of ALL religions towards him, I began to think differently.
-ithinkisee
(From the 'hoping Billygoat doesn't hate my guts now' class)
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Why Christianity is all about judgement!
by free2beme inthis joke was written by the comedian emo phillips.
what makes it funny is that it captures christianity to the exact point we all should know.
enjoy .... voted the funniest religious joke of all time.
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ithinkisee
I do feel that George Bush's style of christianity is more about judgement than love.
The other night on Trading Spouses a Christian wife traded places with a Unitarian wife. The friends of the Christian wife belittled the Universalist wife to the point of tears because she did not believe in their god but instead in a "higher power". That sounds like judgement to me.
One of my good friends has a girlfriend who is a born again christian and will NOT marry him unless he accepts Jesus Christ as his lord and savior. They had a child together and her whole family is holding this over his head. He REALLY loves this girl too. He is a moral and upright guy. Yet they hold this over his head? That sounds like judgement to me.
Some of the most blatant racism takes place in Christian churches ... they are often some of the most segregated (racially, financially, and socially) than many other places.
I do not intend to discount all Christians with my observations ... but they are my observations.
-ithinkisee
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My Prediction: More Elders, Ministerial Servants & Pioneers Will Be Removed
by minimus inbecause of this college rule.
i know many family "hads" that have decided that they wanted to have their children go to school.
i know of some older ones that have gone to community college to get a degree so as to have a better paying job.
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ithinkisee
Funny you should mention this........
I found out that an elder came back from the school and resigned.....the reason.....
No longer able to agree, with many points made.
Thats why I looking forward to Sir's next two posts.
Any more info on this? -ithinkisee
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Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-20-05 WT Study (Haughty)
by blondie in" was pharaoh's haughty.
"your heart became haughty".
"-isaiah 2:17.. humble christians--only jws.
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ithinkisee
Learning from brothers in writing and service departments that often the articles written in the magazines and talks at the conventions are meant to address specific problems - and the problem isn't usually readily apparent in the title or general subject of the talk/article. (ITIS)
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/94334/1.ashx
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Thanks for using some of my quotes Blondie!
BTW, the main person that said this to me was a good (and important) friend in the Writing Department and someone I am SURE Barbara Anderson knows.
-ithinkisee
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My friends experience at elder school
by Grouper ina friend of mind went to elder school recently and i convoy the following for him: .
the co asked him previously if he could assist with a demonstration showing the superiority of wtbts education to university education.
my friend holds a few masters' degrees and will be starting a phd program soon so the co thought he would be an excellent candidate to demonstrate the superiority of wtbts education, but there was a little problem my friend he said no.
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ithinkisee
InfamousOne said:
as much as id like to agree cuz it makes the witnesses look bad, that isnt true at all... like i work hard at skool... im triple majoring and looking to go for my PhD... but ill tell u, my university life has brought baou much more drinkin, much more sex and much more partyin... they dont want us in school cuz they dont want us to think...
True, but how long will you be able to keep up that schedule? Something will have to give eventually. Hopefully it won't be your education.
-ithinkisee
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is it just me or do mormons look happier than jdubs?
by in a new york bethel minute init seems to me that mormons enjoy their work a lot more than jdubs... and they do it 12 hours a day.
they have to walk everywhere.
they have no social life or money.
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ithinkisee
That's pre- 1980's... it's changed. I have several mormon friends - most of the adult women in the families work - ya gotta do what ya gotta do to get by nowdays.
And did I mention they have a University?
-ithinkisee
![http://sc.msn.com/3E/9VPG7%60B9!4_IK@,A%[email protected]](https://sc.msn.com/3E/9VPG7%60B9!4_IK@,A%5DBP@1.gif){kind=link}