“Thanks bennyk, So as the Watch Tower teaching stands, the separation of the sheep and the goats that occurs after the Great Tribulation, could occur AFTER the end of the 1,000 year judgment period. That would mean the goats would live with the sheep applicants for one thousand years. Am I following you?”
Not Quite. Russell taught that the Separation of the Sheep and Goats was to occur for most humans at the End of the Millennium. (Russell also taught that the truly recalcitrant sinner could be declared a Goat and be cut off everlastingly even during the Millennium.) In contrast, The Society began teaching in the 15. Oct. 1995 Watchtower that the Separation takes place in the “near future” and “soon” after the beginning of the Great Tribulation -- thus apparently BEFORE and/or during Armageddon. Note the following:
*** w97 7/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers ***
The Watchtower of October 15, 1995, showed why these verses apply after the great tribulation begins….
The articles in The Watchtower dealing with the sheep and the goats noted: “While the judging as described in the parable is in the near future, even now something vital is taking place….
As The Watchtower showed, Jesus will soon sit on his throne and pronounce sentence, people being judicially separated in a final sense to life or to cutting-off.
(I think the above statements preclude this Judgment being placed more than one thousand years in the future.)
So, if I understand the Society correctly and consistently…
1) The “Other Sheep” are anyone “having the prospect of life on earth” (*** w95 4/15 p. 31 Questions from Readers) This class includes all non-anointed Christians (they have the prospect even now) as well as anyone who will be resurrected. This class is not yet finally judged.
2) The Sheep of Matthew Chapter 25 are those who are “separated … to everlasting life.” (w97 7/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers)
The problem which the Society has not addressed is that this would mean that the “Great Crowd” of “Other Sheep” (by virtue of their not being “Goats”) are “judicially separated in a final sense to life” in the “near future” (again, w97 7/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers)
– emphatically NOT at the End of the Thousand Years (Rev. 20:5) Current teachings are clearly not consistent.
bennyk
JoinedPosts by bennyk
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Sheep, other sheep, other other sheep, Three classes of sheep?
by garybuss ini got this message from a forum member.. i think you may be confusing the wts' understanding of the "sheep" of matthew chapter 25 (who have not yet been separated from the "goats") and the "other sheep" of john chapter 10. the two groups are not (i.e.
no longer) considered synonymous.. .
what am i missing?
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bennyk
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Sheep, other sheep, other other sheep, Three classes of sheep?
by garybuss ini got this message from a forum member.. i think you may be confusing the wts' understanding of the "sheep" of matthew chapter 25 (who have not yet been separated from the "goats") and the "other sheep" of john chapter 10. the two groups are not (i.e.
no longer) considered synonymous.. .
what am i missing?
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bennyk
The difference between the Other Sheep and the Sheep of Matthew chap. 25 is very subtle. (It is also incorrect). The Other Sheep are "people having the prospect of life on earth" (could include just about anyone who dies at least five minutes before the Great Tribulation), whereas the Sheep (Matt. 25) are "people being judicially separated in a final sense to life." These definitions are found in the *** w95 4/15 p. 31 Questions From Readers bzw. the w97 7/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers.
It was because Matt. 25 portrays the judgment as final that Russell placed it in a future Millennium; the Society now places it after the Great Tribulation begins. NOTE THIS: What is really astounding is that the WTS' new teaching means the Great Crowd (the subset of Other Sheep who survive Armageddon) should in theory be "judicially separated in a final sense to life" -- emphatically NOT to a thousand year Judgment Day, after which they might finally "come to life" (Rev. 20:5). I don't believe the Society thought it through... as is typical. -
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The GB is a cloaking device for the FDS
by cultswatter ini spent my first 25 years in the jws and could never figure out who the fds was.
today it was bugging me - why can't i relate to the fds even though i now know it is nonsense, but even more important, why can't jws understand who the fds really is?.
let's look at some facts.
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bennyk
I don't think Gary means that an official Doctrine has been stated, but rather that the last paragraphs 01. May 2007 QfR completely eviscerate the authority of any F&DS class members outside of the Governing Body.
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Comments You Will Not Hear at the 5-20-07 WT Review (Humbly Submit)
by blondie inhumbly submitting to loving shepherds.
*** w87 6/15 p. 15 par.
500-501 par.
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bennyk
This entire Watchtower article was a steaming pile of horse excrement.
But any failure or mistakes on the part of certain elders would not justify an insubordinate attitude on our part .
That must be why John spoke so highly of Diotrephes (3 John 9, 10).
I'm certain Paul would have encouraged everyone to submit and obey those unfaithful Elders in Ephesus (Acts 20:29,30)
Jesus evidently did not agree with the GB's thinking, for he says regarding the Congregation in Ephesus: "I know your deeds... that you cannot bear bad men, and that you put those to the test who say they are Apostles, but they are not, and you found them liars." (Rev. 2: 2)
The Governing Body would applaud the Nuremberg Defense ("But my superior officer told me I must [insert crime here]"). Does anyone really believe that Jesus, who "searches the kidneys and hearts, and will give to YOU individually according to your deeds" (Rev. 2:23), will accept such an excuse favourably? The Allied Court did not. Apparently the Society wishes to inculcate the thought that others will bear the judgment and punishment for an individual's actions. Yet the Scriptures teach that "each of us will render an account for HIMSELF to God." (Rom. 14: 10)
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My Mother is studying WT literature with a 7th Day Adventist and wants info
by OnTheWayOut inmy mother is not computer savvy, so she asked me to look up 7th day advents and the woman,.
ellen white, who founded it.
i will print a bunch of information for her from wikipedia to help.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/seventh_day_adventist.
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bennyk
Perhaps the SeventhDayAdventist could make use of the following:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/118225/1.ashx ("Deliverance at Hand" every decade for 120 years!)
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Crisis of Conscience/ISoCF Library Campaign
by AK - Jeff inmany libraries do not have copies yet, as it is far from 'mainstream' reading for most people.
i propose that we can all do a small deed that can/might be a huge favor to our former 'brethren' in the 'truth'.
check with the local library, see if they have the books on the shelves.
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bennyk
Yup. Our donations are still being processed, however.
We also donated Combatting Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan. This is good because it is not "apostate" (doesn't specifically mention the Watch Tower Society) and thus permissible for active Witnesses to read. They will be interested to discover that the WTS shares many characteristics with the "Moonies."
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I Need A Comeback Statement
by journey-on inwhen i suggested to my jw sister that the wts has caused so much pain and division in our family, she told me it was because my brothers and i had made the choice to leave.
we were responsible for the division---not the society.
we are the ones that chose to leave the love and protective shelter of jehovah's organization and we are the ones that have the choice to return to the fold.. i need an intelligent comeback, preferably one that will plant a seed, not one too sarcastic.
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bennyk
If you are a Christian, you could ask her to read Matt. 10:32-39 and 19:29.
Then tell her that you will continue praying for her.
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1919 Appointment
by garybuss inwhen jesus appointed the watch tower corporation as his only channel on earth in 1919, what did he appoint?
did he appoint the people?
they're all dead now.. did he appoint the printing equipment?
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bennyk
This also reminds me of a question that has come to my mind often.
Even if there was a 'first century governing body', where are we ever told that they appointed successors???Well per the official teaching of the Watch Tower Society, the Apostles had NO successors.
In the Reasoning book, p. 37, under the subheading "Apostolic Succession" we find: "Definition: The doctrine that the 12 apostles have successors to whom authority has been passed by divine appointment. [...] Not a Bible teaching."
You might find this useful when discussing the Governing Body; I know I have found it so (and have used it, too!)
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Has the organisation the biblical right to judge its members?
by Marcel inokay, before you say straight "no!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!1111111111111111" let us rethink.
lets say jehovas witnesses actually have the truth.
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bennyk
(Hebrews 13:17) 17 Be <b>obedient</b> to those who are taking the lead among YOU and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over YOUR souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to YOU.
When confronted with this Scripture, one could perhaps respond by reading 3 John 9,10 or Acts 20:29,30.
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Update Regarding How The May 1 QFR Is "Playing" In The Congregations
by Justitia Themis ini have been emailing with a sister in my congregation regarding the qfr.
i told her i wasn't discussing it with most jws, because i didn't want to hear any of their "new light" garbage.
i told her this isn't new light; this just means that what we paraded out in 1935 as "new light" was wrong.. she sheepishly (no pun intended) agreed.
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bennyk
Ozziepost writes:
From another angle, by cutting themselves off from Joe Ratherflawed's scheme, they've opened up a real Pandora's Box - how will they stop the number of the "anointed"™ at a 'respectable' number so that they're still well under the 144,000?
I may well be wrong, but it seems that this QfR was almost unique among articles of the past four decades in not mentioning the number 144 000 in connection with the heavenly hope.
I think the WTS is interested in seeing the reaction to this article to determine whether or not they can feel free to "adjust" the teachings regarding the Anointed. Perhaps the number 144 000 may be tentatively suggested to be figurative, or they may wish to begin teaching that the 144 000 (as a literal number) were being gathered simultaneously with the Great Crowd (thereby countering the unspoken question many have regarding the length of time necessary for gathering the Bride Class). This latter option would be a partial return to the teachings of Russell.