Posts by adelmaal

35

Can anyone help with info to refute only 144,000 going to heaven?

by The Leological One in

jw
friends

i've recently shown my wife this forum (she's a df'd jw who does still hold fast to jw views).

she's been really depressed and feels down on herself constantly because she wasn't a better witness and seems to feel she has no hope of a personal relationship with god now that she's df'd.

i was a little upset a moment ago trying to get her out of her depression by pushing my point of view that the wt is full of $hit regarding a great many number of things, the least of which that only 144,000 people are going to heaven/effectively can be saved.

adelmaal

she read the entire thread started by SwordOfJah

That's great! It is a good thread and there have been more postings to it even today I believe.

I hear you on her not wanting to read a book "apostate literature". I also still believed the Witnesses had "the truth" even when I was df'd and also after I eventually left on my own accord. It took time for me to consider the fact that they might be wrong... You are doing a great job supporting your wife and I can tell you care about her well being very much.

Hang in there and coming to this site will I'm sure be of great help to you.

35

Can anyone help with info to refute only 144,000 going to heaven?

by The Leological One in

jw
friends

i've recently shown my wife this forum (she's a df'd jw who does still hold fast to jw views).

she's been really depressed and feels down on herself constantly because she wasn't a better witness and seems to feel she has no hope of a personal relationship with god now that she's df'd.

i was a little upset a moment ago trying to get her out of her depression by pushing my point of view that the wt is full of $hit regarding a great many number of things, the least of which that only 144,000 people are going to heaven/effectively can be saved.

adelmaal

Has she read Ray Franz's books? "Crises of Conscience" and "In Search of Christian Freedom" are both great books written by someone who was at one time a very faithful and influential Jehovah's Witness. He has written about the inconsistencies, the hypocracy, the politics, the pride, the lack of love, etc. demonstrated from the top down in that religion. I am half way through the first book and it's great. It really shows how accountable the JWs are and how they have mislead their followers time and time again with dire consequences. These books really hit home with JWs because they are written by someone who was at one time a sincere believer. Below are the write-ups about these two books:

"Crises of Conscience"

This book was banned, even before it was written.

The author, Raymond Franz, had been under ban by the Watchtower Society since 1981, when he was excommunicated for eating a meal with a previously banned individual, his landlord. Three million Jehovah's Witnesses are now forbidden to speak to Franz, read his book, or even say "Hello" if they pass him on the street.

And the Watchtower does well to shield its followers from this man ? if they are to remain followers. Nephew of the organization?s 94-year-old president Fred Franz, Raymond spent nine years as a member of its top-secret Governing Body. The inside information Franz now reveals in his book is sufficient to shake any Jehovah's Witness's faith ? not in God, but in the organization claiming to be God?s mouthpiece.

Can little Johnnie receive an organ transplant, or must his parents refuse? Can Mrs Smith do as her husband wishes in bed, or must she say "NO" to him? Can Jack accept hospital work as an alternative to military service, or must he refuse and go to jail?

If little Johnnie's parents, Mrs. Smith, and Jack are Jehovah's Witnesses, their answers come from Watchtower headquarters in Brooklyn, New York. And the final word rests with the Governing Body. As a member of that elite group, Ray Franz had to share in making these decisions for Witnesses worldwide. As the Body's votes swung this way and that ? and millions of Witnesses? family life or very lives swayed in the ballance ? Franz became more and more conscience stricken at what he saw happening.

One chapter details how the Governing Body decided that certain conduct between husband and wife in bed would be grounds for divorce and disfellowshipping (formal excommunication and shunning). After the edict was issued (The Watchtower 12/1/72, pages 734-736) numerous marriages broke up as a result. Then, seven years later, the Governing Body changed its mind and reversed the policy.

In the same way, the Governing Body was legislating other personal matters for Jehovah's Witnesses: medical treatment, family relationships, etc. Rank-and-file J.W.s accepted the Governing Body's decisions as "God?s law", but Ray Franz knew that each decision was a mere product of the human whims, opinions and prejudices of his peers as they tossed ideas around and put them to a vote. Franz called to mind Jesus? words to the Pharisees: "Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition...their teachings are but rules made by man." (Matthew 15: 6,9 New International Version)

Like Quakers, Mennonites, Seventh Day Adventists and others, Jehovah's Witnesses have long refused to bear arms as soldiers. But, unlike these others, the Witnesses have also refused civilian "alternative service" work in hospitals. (Witnesses tell the judge that their decisions are the result of personal conscience, but, in reality any Witness not following the organization?s instructions would be "disassociated" ? cut off from friends and family the same as if disfellowshipped.) This practice came into question in a series of Governing Body meetings in 1978.

A motion was made at each one of those meetings to allow J.W.s to accept civilian hospital work. In each meeting a majority of the Governing Body (Franz names them) voted in favor of the change. But the resolution never passed because a two-thirds majority was required. So, young men among Jehovah's Witnesses continued to refuse civilian work in hospitals ? and thus faced jail sentences ? even though a majority of the Governing Body felt there was no objection to such work.

Another "conscience" issue for Witnesses involved political party membership cards. When the ruling element in the African country of Malawi demanded that citizens purchase "party cards", the Watchtower Society took a stand against it. In adhering to this position Malawian Witnesses faced imprisonment, beatings and severe mistreatment at the hands of government loyalists.

Meanwhile, in Mexico Witnesses were in the habit of bribing officials to obtain cards identifying them as members of the reserves who had fulfilled a year of military service. Not having the cartilla would result in some inconvenience, but not the sort of suffering Witnesses faced in Malawi

Franz relates in detail how Watchtower headquarters gave its approval to both policies leaving African J.W.s to face brutal persecution while permitting Mexican Witnesses to buy cards 'under the table'. This caused much suffering in Africa. And it helped cause the "crisis of conscience" Raymond Franz experienced as a member of the Governing Body whose votes enforced these contradictory rulings.

The final portion of Crisis of Conscience is devoted to the events surrounding Ray's removal from the Body and subsequent expulsion from the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses. If it were not for the modern setting and doctrinal issues peculiar to J.W.s the story would sound much like any 'heresy' trial from the medieval Inquisition. Or, again, the evidence based on rumor and hearsay could have been taken from the Salem witch trials of colonial Massachusetts.

True, the Inquisition's victims were burned at the stake, and the "witches" of Salem were hanged, while Raymond Franz was merely deprived of his livelihood, publicly disgraced, and cut off from family and lifelong friends. Still, one is left with the feeling that the only reason why Franz is an author today, instead of a corpse is that the Watchtower Society can not administer capital punishment. From the standpoint of Jehovah's Witnesses, though, Franz is a dead man

Crisis of Conscience will be of particular interest to J.W.s?the few who dare read it. But it gives all of us food for thought about our personal relationship with God and our attitude toward men who claim religious authority.

"In Search of Christian Freedom"

Freedom is crucial to genuine Christianity. How erosion of Christian freedom began in the early centuries, how it can and does occur today, and the means for resisting the invasion of personal conscience and thought; a sequel to Crisis of Conscience. Discusses teachings of organizational loyalty, door-to-door activity, disfellowshipping, blood, and many others.

63

2 year old shot in head by 4 year old. (Houston, TX)

by kwintestal in

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/articlenews/story/ctvnews/1110737306940_2/?hub=world toddler shot by 4-year-old brother: texas police

associated press.

houston ?

adelmaal

And I guess they should take cars off the road too, eh? They kill a lot of people due to idiots who don't know how to control it, so why not take them away? I mean, a car has it's uses and all, but so does a gun.

Cars were made for the purpose of transportation. Guns were made for the purpose of injuring/killing people. Big difference...

Anyone can get a gun, including Al Queada members, stupid irresponsible parents, criminals, drug dealers, psychos, etc. Gun control does not necessarily need to mean no guns period. It should certainly mean there is a control set on who can have guns; limited possesion IMHO! Just as a person with a history of DUI should not be able to drive... Car control - LOL.

Bottem line in this instance is no gun then no issue.

Even a lock box can be broken by a teenager wanting access to the weapon.

Might I add this is the one big issue that separates me from an all out 100% Right Winger... I don't get how people can be anti-abortion and yet be ok with having guns... It boggles my mind. Not to get off topic, of course

34

How do you handle a Volitile Ex??

by Seeking Knowledge in

jw
friends

my ex....is an idiot.

i have had problems with him from the get go when it comes to custody of our son.

we have gone to court and established some ground rules, which he consistantly bends & twists to suit him.

adelmaal

"Mom, I don't want to go see my dad"

Hearing that just breaks my heart I am so sorry you have to hear that. I know you want your son to feel positive about going to dad's and you want him not to see that it bothers you that he doesn't want to go but it may behoove you to at least ask your son why he feels that way...

I am now trying to get around the whole joint signature for my daughter to see a therapist. Certainly, if your ex can take your son to an accupuncturist you can take him to a therapist. It might help him to be able to talk to someone impartial so he can deal with the feelings he is having as a result of going between two different environments.

You just never know what may be going on over there and he may not be old enough to put it into words for you yet. I have not yet heard back from the therapist I called on Friday (she checks messages Mon-Th but when I do I will let you know what she says.

Hang in there mama and don't let his dad interfere with your child having adequate and consistent childcare! That's definitely crossing the line.

24

My mom was just rushed to the Hospital....

by rwagoner in

jw
friends

.

and you know how i know...... not because my dad called me or anthing like that..... thanks to years of working in law enforcement/public safety i'm pretty nosey and have a "scanner" in my house that monitors police, fire and ambulance calls.. just heard the ambulance go to my parents house because my mother wasn't breathing properly..... she has renal failure and must go to kidney dialysis 3 times a week.

sometimes for no reason her body simply stops processing fluids and she "fills up" and basically begins to drown from the inside.. i can only assume that this is the case tonight....of course nowdays hospitals wont tell you anything without the patients permission...... keep her in your thoughts....she may shun me but i can't help but worry about her.....

adelmaal

I am so sorry. It makes me sick to think your mom could be dying and that religion stands in your way of being with her...

Are you going to try to get in touch?

I hope all goes ok and your mom is back home safe. I also hope your parents see through the hatefulness of that religion and are able to re-establish a relationship with their son while there is opportunity for it.

Take care my fellow Right Winger!

P.S. Personally, they df'd you not vice versa. I would personally go down there with flowers (if it's local) and tell her you love her and hope she gets well). Then at least they can see that even though they shun you it is not the reverse. You afterall are an adult not burdened with ridiculous religious rules. JMHO.

I would send her flowers or show up anyway. Show them what love really means. Maybe next time, they'll tell you.

My thoughts are similar to those in the above quote...

22

Watchtower Jan,15 2006.??????

by integ in

jw
friends

from watchtower jan 15 2006.

" another fine example for our youths is that of 4 year old "jessica", who wrote to the society to express appreciation for the faithful slaves' counsel regarding what to do if one is tempted to read any of the "poison" of apostate literature; "i am writing to you dear brothers to express my sincere, heartfelt appreciation to those of you entrusted with the administration of carrying out our master jesus' spiritual directive to supply us with our 'food at the proper time'.

as a young one, it is sometimes difficult to resist the great deceiver: satans' crafty acts.

adelmaal

ROFLOL!

Oh yeah! You know those little twisted apostate kindergarteners are running wild all over the playground...

Give me a break. Like a kindergartener really wrote that!

They are really stretching it.

22

Man am I bummed....

by upside/down in

jw
friends

just got off the phone with my brother who lives in socal (nondub) and was informed that my dad just had a stroke!.

he's my "dad", not the sperm donor that helped concieve me and my brother than abandoned us so he could "find himself".

he's 74, very intelligent old school retired ex marine, that served in the korean war.

adelmaal

My heart and thoughts go out to you. I think it's great that you managed to have such a respectful and loving relationship with your step-dad. I hear you on biology... I was adopted and my adoptive parents are my true parents. I have not yet had to face any major health issues with them but I know it will be hard when I do.

Please take care and I hope you and your family stay well.

34

Newbie

by writegirl in

i stumbled on this site by accident and i'm kind of glad i did.

in the past i have typically avoided these sites because most people on them seem newly bitter and i didn't like the tone.

i was raised a witness by an alcoholic father and an abusive stepmother.

adelmaal

Welcome!

I am not a horrible person because I left this religion

I too struggled with the above statement after I left for quite some time. I just figured I would die at armageddon and I would be forever guilt ridden by what is said in the Bible.

It's quite liberating to find out there's nothing wrong with you and the Bible is still an encouraging book, which can bring you close to God without that religion! I'm happier and a better person for leaving...

It's good to have you here. That's great that your hubby encourages you in such ways!

34

How do you handle a Volitile Ex??

by Seeking Knowledge in

jw
friends

my ex....is an idiot.

i have had problems with him from the get go when it comes to custody of our son.

we have gone to court and established some ground rules, which he consistantly bends & twists to suit him.

adelmaal

Legal custody means who makes the decisions about the children?s health, education and welfare. This includes deciding where the children go to school or whether they should get braces on their teeth. If the parents share joint legal custody, both parents can ask schools and doctors for information about the children. It is important to be clear about who makes which decisions so that there is no disagreement later on.

From what is stated above, it sounds like BeeBee is indeed correct if your joint legal custody terms are not clearly defined in your decree. Great for me! Not so great for you. I also read the following though:

The parent who has legal joint custody retains the "right" to challenge your decision in court if he/she disagrees.

So it sounds to me like you have a good leg to stand on if you don't agree with accupuncture. If your ex-husband is unwilling to communicate with you regarding medical, schooling, etc. decisions then the court will re-consider joint legal custody. The court favors joint custody in situations where the parents are able to work together from what I have read. It might help just to get your joint legal custody more clearly defined in court as to who is responsible for making each of those decisions.

I'll still check back once I hear from the child therapist I was referred to...

34

How do you handle a Volitile Ex??

by Seeking Knowledge in

jw
friends

my ex....is an idiot.

i have had problems with him from the get go when it comes to custody of our son.

we have gone to court and established some ground rules, which he consistantly bends & twists to suit him.

adelmaal

My divorce was handled in CA and is still in force. Joint Legal Custody, as defined by CA means that EITHER parent has the right to authorize medical treatment or even enroll (or disenroll) the kids in school WITHOUT consulting the other. Barring specific language to the contrary, he does not have to consult you first. (I'm not a lawyer but that is what my lawyer said).

Hmmm... Not what my therapist told me last week when I asked if she could see my daughter regarding issues she's been having in school and with the holidays. My therapist asked if I had sole custody and when I told her I had joint custody she said she would need signatures from both parents to be able to seem my daughter.

I will double check with the therapist she referred me to as the lady she referred me to is a child therapist and her husband is also a therapist who does allot of work with the courts.

I'll update this thread when she calls me back. I would love to be able to take my child to the therapist without her father's consent since JWs in general are not encouraged to see therapists and he has refused on more than one occasion to allow me to take our daughter.