Posts by Jeffro

20

Jw still believe 4026 B.C.E as Adams creation...?

by thedepressedsoul in

i was doing some "research" and came across jw articles that all talk about 4026 b.c.e as adams creation.

it even went as far as to state, "there are no actual records of ancient man, his writing, agriculture, and other pursuits, extending into the past before 4026 b.c.e., the date of adams creation.

since the scriptures outline mans history from the very creation of the first human pair, there can be no such thing as prehistoric man.

Jeffro

DesirousOfChange:

Have not seen that mentioned recently, but have not seen it retracted either.

It was most recently mentioned in 2013, in the revised edition of the New World Translation, appendix B2.

8

Did God establish His Covenant with the Gentile Nations or the Jews?

by sowhatnow in

im not sure where to post this but i think its telling.

not long but read it closely i get a bit confused on the latter half.

the question is did god establish his covenant with the gentile nations or the jews.. [though i have read from a jewish web source, that the jews have nothing to do with israel and the greek scriptures or half the hebrew scriptures ].

Jeffro

Did God establish His Covenant with the Gentile Nations or the Jews?

No.

Well... that was easy.

38

ARE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY STATISTICS REALLY TRUSTWORTHY?

by TerryWalstrom in

of these, over 2,000 were admitted to concentration camps.

1,000 died in prison and concentration camps.

another 1,000 of jehovah's witnesses died in prisons and concentration camps.".

Jeffro

Crazyguy:

Its just like their membership numbers printed every year and stating things like there are witnesses in places like Pakistan. Its my opinion their numbers are lies and some of the places they say they have members are lies.

Even if the statistics aren't simply made up by the Watch Tower Society, they're based on self-reported statistics, which many JWs know to be exaggerated—especially when it comes to reported preaching, for which there is an incentive to report time that is either inflated or entirely made up.

Beyond that, while their method of only counting those involved in 'preaching' as 'members' may seem modest, it is actually geared toward exaggerating their growth rates.

Most JW growth is made up of 'born-ins', and their statistics for 'Bible studies' are also majorly skewed by JW parents having 'Bible studies' with their own children.

Seventh Day Adventists make the same trade-off with their membership statistics by only counting baptised members to inflate growth rates. This method of exaggerating their grown may go back to their common origins in the 19th century.

6

NGO list 2010 - IBSA, EAJCW, Office of General Counsel for Jehovah's Witnesses-USA

by Glitchy in

russian, uk, and usa witnesses listed as ngo's!.

all i can say is wow!

see pages 2, 10, and 23!.

Jeffro

There's nothing inherently 'wrong' with being an NGO. Any organisation that isn't governmental is by definition an 'NGO'. But it is odd that an organisation that claims to be 'politically neutral' and 'no part of the world' is involved with the OSCE.

30

Clever/snappy comeback for "you're an apostate"

by Dagney in

jw
friends

i'm looking for some clever comebacks.

i really don't care that i am an apostate, but would like to deliver a quick comeback or two to perhaps make the other person think.

any suggestions most welcome.

Jeffro

Awake!, 22 June 2000, page 6:

Some people insult those who disagree with them by questioning character or motives instead of focusing on the facts. Name-calling slaps a negative, easy-to-remember label onto a person, a group, or an idea. The name-caller hopes that the label will stick. If people reject the person or the idea on the basis of the negative label instead of weighing the evidence for themselves, the name-caller’s strategy has worked.

24

Evidence regarding Daniel 11 & Antiochus IV

by Bobcat in

i was doing research on daniel 8 and 11. what i was wondering was if there was any evidence that the jews saw daniel 8 and 11 fulfilled in antiochus iv.. the explained fulfillments (re: antiochus; non-wt explanations) make a lot of sense, but what specifically i was wondering was if the jews (after the time of antiochus iv) saw the daniel prophecies as being fulfilled in him?

or if there are any threads that discuss this, a link would be appreciated.. thank you in advance.. take care.

Jeffro

All of Daniel chapter 11 relates to events up to Antiochus IV in the 2nd century BCE. There is no good reason to believe they refer to any later period.

See here for more information.

13

Were Daniel and Jeremiah contemporaries?

by shotgun in

i've recently read who wrote the gospels, it mentioned on a side note from the gospels that daniel was probably written around 200 bce not during nebuchadnezzars reign.. in daniel chapter 9 he mentions reading the phophetic words of jeremiah about the 70 years of servitude.

jeremiah lived in a different land (judah) while daniel was in babylon.

how would daniel have been able to get jeremiahs scrolls seeing they had just been written and also the position daniel was in as chief of nebuchadnezzars magic practising priests would not have bode well for real jewish worshippers to think about making any saturday morning placements with him.. the book i read states that jeremiah, daniel and most of the other books seperate from the talmud were not canonized until around 200 bce.. any thoughts on this or have you done or read anything on this subject.

Jeffro

RunningMan:

History tells us that Jehoiakim began reigning in 609 B.C. This would mean that the third year of his rule was 606 B.C. Nebuchadnezzar did not become king until 605 B.C. So, the intersection of their reigns is not in the correct place. As well, Nebuchadnezzar?s first attack on Jerusalem did not take place until 597 B.C., nine years later than the account in Daniel.

Actually, using Nisan-based accession-year dating (as would be used in Babylon), Jehoiakim's third year was indeed 605 BCE. Additionally, 2 Kings 24:1-12 indicates Nebuchadnezzar coming against Jerusalem prior to the siege in 597 BCE. The context of those statements is in fact accurate (and it is not unremarkable that records of the events could be available to the author of Daniel), but there is no evidence that the 'Daniel' character actually existed.

The earliest mention of him is in the following scriptures:
even if these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they would deliver but their own lives by their righteousness, says the Lord GOD? ? Ezekiel 14:14

As Leolaia has already expertly pointed out, the 'Dan[i]el' mentioned in Ezekiel is not associated with the character in the book of Daniel.

First of all, history shows that Ahasuerus ruled Persia between 486 B.C. and 465 B.C. So, the son of Ahasuerus could not possibly be in power in 537 B.C. The chronology is out by at least 72 years.
Secondly, the writer appears to be rather confused about Darius. There were actually three Darius? that ruled Persia, none of whom were Medes. The first Darius ruled between 521 and 486 B.C. However, Darius I was not the son of Ahasuerus. He was the father of Ahasuerus. Darius II doesn?t show up until 424 B.C., which is 42 years after the death of Ahasuerus. He wasn?t Ahauerus? son, either.

It is possible that the author of Daniel got the history mixed up, but it's also possible that the father of 'Darius the Mede' (most likely this 'Darius' was actually Cyrus' general, Gobryas) was also called Ahasuerus.

For example, Daniel served as Prime Minister to Nebuchadnezzar, and apparently held this post right up to the destruction of Babylon ? a period between 23 and 47 years in length. Yet, he is not mentioned in any of the Babylonian records from that time period.

That indeed is a significant problem with the claim that Daniel was in Babylon.

As well, the Bible tells us that Nebuchadnezzar experienced a seven year bout of madness, where he roamed in the fields and ate grass like a bull. Well, not only does the secular record not record such a thing, but there are not even any gaps in his reign. There are no seven year periods in the reign of Nebuchadnezzar that do not have references to his actions as king.

Yes, that is another significant problem with the literal interpretation.

In the third chapter of Daniel, Nebuchadnezzar built an image of gold that was 87.5 feet tall, and 8.75 feet wide. This project, which would surely have bankrupted the royal treasury, was not mentioned in the secular record.

Chapters 3 and 6 of Daniel (parallel parts of a chiasm) both present stories about restrictions of Jewish worship. They are both almost certainly allusions to the ban of Jewish worship by Antiochus IV in the second century BCE.

13

Were Daniel and Jeremiah contemporaries?

by shotgun in

i've recently read who wrote the gospels, it mentioned on a side note from the gospels that daniel was probably written around 200 bce not during nebuchadnezzars reign.. in daniel chapter 9 he mentions reading the phophetic words of jeremiah about the 70 years of servitude.

jeremiah lived in a different land (judah) while daniel was in babylon.

how would daniel have been able to get jeremiahs scrolls seeing they had just been written and also the position daniel was in as chief of nebuchadnezzars magic practising priests would not have bode well for real jewish worshippers to think about making any saturday morning placements with him.. the book i read states that jeremiah, daniel and most of the other books seperate from the talmud were not canonized until around 200 bce.. any thoughts on this or have you done or read anything on this subject.

Jeffro

Jeremiah and the author of Daniel were almost certainly not contemporaries.

For an overview of the book of Daniel and how all of its contents relate to the period of writing in the second century BCE, see here.

114

Early Evidence for 1 John 5: 7

by Perry in

italic 4th and 5th century.

629 in the 14th century.

429 in the 14th century (margin).

Jeffro

Perry:

Hundreds of fulfilled prophecies are not something that can be made up on the fly, we don't live long enough to pull something like that off.

Entirely untrue. It's much easier to look at source material (supposed 'prophecies) and make up fulfilments than it would be to actually recognise actions as 'fulfilling' an ambiguous passage of an ancient text. This is especially the case where there is absolutely no evidence of any eye-witnesses to the alleged events and a largely illiterate public.

29

Video of JW's street witnessing using a tablet ... getting owned by BIble users

by wannabefree in

i came across this video ... and watched it ... why?

i don't know really, but i found it intersting.. especially interesting was how these men used the bible, they knew their message, they used an actual hard copy bible that has obviously been studied, and the older jw man, well, he was using a tablet.

it seemed cumbersome compared to using the actual bible.

Jeffro

GoneAwol:

At 12:45, the dude is reading Ps 148 v 13. He nearly finishes it before saying to the dub, "i`ll wait up 'till you find it". On your slow-pad.

This reminds me of something I recently noticed about the 2009 revision of the Reasoning Book, which omits the entire section from the original version about what to say when someone says, 'I'm a Muslim'.

The original publication included the following condescending drivel (underlining added for emphasis):

If they make strong assertions concerning their beliefs, it can be beneficial to ask them, tactfully, to show you the point in the Koran, sura (chapter) and verse. (Wait while they search for it.) When they are unable to find it, some give evidence of greater willingness to listen to what you show them in the Bible.