Posts by Jeffro

55

Watchtower Sudy 12 July.the Kings of North & South (from 05/20 issue)

by BluesBrother in

it is a challenge next sunday for them .

due to starting the convention programme the wt study will be a 30 minute run through ,and deals with this prophecy ... i doubt the younger ones are familiar with it at all bur oldies could debate it at length .we on the look out for the king of the north to enter "the land of decoration" (more to follow,maybe next week).

this article makes a grand claim in par 2.

Jeffro

sir82:

Wasn't that all those ancient Egyptian, Greek, & Roman rulers? Seleucus, Ptolemy, Cleopatra, Augustus, etc.

Sort of. Nothing beyond the Seleucid and Ptolemaic dynasties until the death of Antiochus IV in 164 BCE was ever actually part of the 'fulfilment'.

In 1958, the Watch Tower Society abandoned its association of Daniel 11:17-19 with Cleopatra VII, with a subtle 'bait and switch' instead noting Cleopatra I as the wife of Ptolemy V who was instead nominated as the 'king' identified in those verses. (Cleopatra VII is only briefly mentioned in Your Will be Done and the later Daniel's Prophecy but not identified with any specific verses of Daniel chapter 11.)

55

Watchtower Sudy 12 July.the Kings of North & South (from 05/20 issue)

by BluesBrother in

it is a challenge next sunday for them .

due to starting the convention programme the wt study will be a 30 minute run through ,and deals with this prophecy ... i doubt the younger ones are familiar with it at all bur oldies could debate it at length .we on the look out for the king of the north to enter "the land of decoration" (more to follow,maybe next week).

this article makes a grand claim in par 2.

Jeffro

Back in the late 19th century, the only significant difference between Russell's interpretation of the 'kings of the north and south' and that of the Seventh-day Adventist Church was Russell's identification of Aurelian and Zenobia among the 'kings'. That difference has now finally been abandoned.

Russell correctly identified the 'kings' up until verse 16 of Daniel chapter 11. By 1954, the Watch Tower Society caught up with the correct identification of the 'kings' up to verse 19. Unfortunately, from there they are permanently stuck with incorrect identifications because they need the 'prophecy' to point to Jesus and then to 'our day'.

Back in reality, the story of the 'kings of the north and south' ends with Antiochus IV Epiphanes.

19

New Book: Pure Worship of Jehovah—Restored At Last!

by Afterburn in

it is a new book, now available on their website in pdf, and it is basically an update to survival—into a new earth!

(1984), the book that convinced me to get baptized at age 12.. i'm not going to review the entire book here.. because matthew 28:18-20 specifies baptizing as part of the great commission, and because hebrews 6:1-2 lists the teaching on baptisms as among the primary doctrine about the christ, i intend to focus on the portion of the new publication that deals with baptism.. in chapter 16, on pages 178 and 179, paragraph 17 states:.

17 to survive the coming destruction, individuals need to prove their faith now.

Jeffro

Afterburn:

It is a new book, now available on their Website in PDF, and it is basically an update to Survival—Into a New Earth! (1984), the book that convinced me to get baptized at age 12.

Though Survival briefly touches on Ezekiel chapter 9, that book only mentions Ezekiel a few times. Pure Worship is actually an update of the 1971 book “The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah”—How?

I'm not going to review the entire book here.

A detailed review of the book is available here.

Because Matthew 28:18-20 specifies baptizing as part of the Great Commission, and because Hebrews 6:1-2 lists the teaching on baptisms as among the primary doctrine about the Christ, I intend to focus on the portion of the new publication that deals with baptism.

The focus on baptism in Pure Worship is a complete distortion of what the relevant part of Ezekiel actually says. In the 'vision' about 'marking' people for survival, the marking and the killing happens at the same time, with the 'man in linen' (i.e. a hypothetical priest) marking people for survival just ahead of the murderers, and they return to Ezekiel at the same time after completing the task. This completely contradicts the Watch Tower Society's interpretation that people 'must' be 'sighing and groaning' now in advance of a later destruction. Additionally, the claim in Pure Worship that 'sighing and groaning' about social conditions somehow means 'get baptised' is a complete misrepresentation of the 'vision' in Ezekiel, obviously intended to inspire a sense of 'urgency' among Witnesses as a recruitment technique.

11

--- the queen, prettiest "king of the south" you have ever seen!

by waton in

when daniel was discussed in the cherished private home "book study", that was the slogan that had been coined:.

zenobia of palmyra, the queen, prettiest king of the south you have ver seen, sung to some ditty melody.

making, having fun then.

Jeffro

waton:

[Regarding Zenobia] J: quote please.

The Watchtower, May 2020, page 3:

For the reason stated here, it no longer seems appropriate to list Roman Emperor Aurelian (270-275 C.E.) as a “king of the north” or Queen Zenobia (267-272 C.E.) as a “king of the south.” This updates what was published in chapters 13 and 14 of the book Pay Attention to Daniel’s Prophecy!

It's almost as if they know they're just making stuff up as they go along...

13

Sued by inmate, North Carolina concedes Witnesses are distinct faith group, not subset of Protestants

by Corney in

last thursday poyner spruill, a prominent north carolina law firm, announced a victory in a pro bono case involving religious freedom of incarcerated jehovah's witnesses.

the poyner team was appointed by the u.s. district court for the western district of north carolina to represent an inmate challenging the state’s policy governing how and when jehovah’s witnesses can worship in prison.

the state’s policy classified jehovah’s witnesses as a subset of christian protestants and, on that basis, prohibited separate jehovah’s witness meetings—an infringement on religious freedom under the first amendment.

Jeffro

Beyond procedures for religious activities in North Carolina prisons, the decision means essentially nothing.

JWs remain a branch of the Adventist movement which is derived from Protestantism.

38

Covid-19 death rate

by BourneIdentity in

worldwide numbers – 13%.

deaths: 359,791. recovered: 2,399,247. active cases 3,044,378. we need to throw out the active cases in our calculations, as we don’t know if those people will survive or die.

deaths + recovered is 2,759,038. deaths/deaths + recovered = death rate.. 359,791/2,759,038 = 13%.

Jeffro

Haven't read through all the responses, but the calculated worldwide death rate is misleading. Different countries have different rates of testing and different metrics for reporting cases. Similarly, the numbers of deaths attributed to coronavirus are impacted by deaths that may actually be attributed to other causes where someone with an existing serious condition may have otherwise died anyway but happened to also contract coronavirus, as well as deaths for which coronavirus may have been the cause but has not been diagnosed. So the numbers can't just be averaged to give a meaningful worldwide result.

11

--- the queen, prettiest "king of the south" you have ever seen!

by waton in

when daniel was discussed in the cherished private home "book study", that was the slogan that had been coined:.

zenobia of palmyra, the queen, prettiest king of the south you have ver seen, sung to some ditty melody.

making, having fun then.

Jeffro

Alas, as of the May 2020 Watchtower, Zenobia was never actually the 'king of the south'.

14

The Great Crowd Fallacy

by Vanderhoven7 in

the great crowd of other sheep witnesses allegedly first began forming early on in the 20th century.

rutherford was totally unaware of this crowds existence until 1935. it was revealed to him in 1932 that the great crowd members were heaven-bound.

then light flashed from heaven in 1935 showing that this group was an earthly class.

Jeffro

Doug Mason:

According to my rusty memory, the Book of Revelations says that the 144,000 are on earth -- that's why they need to be protected -- while the Great Crowd is before the throne (up in the sky?)

Yes, the Watch Tower Society's version of the "great crowd" and the "144,000" is completely backwards.

See What Does the Bible Really Teach… about the 144,000? (PDF)

19

Ancient Hebrews Got Away With So Much

by Tim207 in

why wasn’t judah punished for sleeping withtamar?

even though she had the legal right to an offspring by his family he still thought he was sleeping with a prostitute.

if it is wrong to even think of having relations with a woman similar to the “sin” of watching pornography why wouldn’t what judah did be wrong?

Jeffro

Tim207:

Why wasn’t Judah punished for sleeping withTamar?

Apart from the story not being historical, it is set prior to the introduction of the Mosaic law, and apart from Judah's personal affront to her prostitution in the story, there is no indication in the Bible of a former prohibition against temple prostitutes (as which Tamar supposedly disguised herself).

Aside from that, the only prohibitions in the Mosaic law about prostitution are that fathers could not make their daughters prostitutes, priests could not marry prostitutes and their daughters could not be prostitutes, and temple prostitutes were forbidden. There is no prohibition at all against prostitutes generally, and prostitution was frowned upon but generally tolerated in Judea.

19

Ancient Hebrews Got Away With So Much

by Tim207 in

why wasn’t judah punished for sleeping withtamar?

even though she had the legal right to an offspring by his family he still thought he was sleeping with a prostitute.

if it is wrong to even think of having relations with a woman similar to the “sin” of watching pornography why wouldn’t what judah did be wrong?

Jeffro

Half banana:

You have to remember that the Bible is mainly fiction. Moses, Abraham Isaac and Jacob did not exist, they are fiction.The twelve tribes did not exist, Most of Genesis is complete fiction. The Exodus is fiction. The conquering of Canaan is fiction. The early kings are fiction, historical kings begin with Hezekiah but the Bible's accounts of historical people are not necessarily true even then.

Mostly correct, except for comments about the kings prior to Hezekiah. There is attestation for various kings of Judah and Israel in extrabiblical sources, including well before Hezekiah. However, there is little to no evidence of David or earlier as historical characters. But as you point out, even for the characters that actually did exist, the versions of events in the Bible are littered with political and religious propaganda.