just a heads up that the english version with the changed cover is now up on jw.com.. i haven’t yet read it but if any you have the time i’m looking forward to people’s insights.. in the meantime i must find a red 🍷.
cheers,.
ozzie (of the ‘is he still here?’ class ).
Drearyweather:
But isn't that what Paul says: "keep this one marked and stop associating with him". There is no question of deciding whether to associate or not.
Yes, Paul is a dictatory jerk about It. But at least he doesn’t pretend (for legal reasons) that it’s a ‘personal decision’.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
slimboyfat:
The Bible itself says Satan was the original serpent and the first liar.
Fallacious argument from authority, fallacy of composition.
The Christian Bible says that. But it’s just because a later work retrofits a character from an earlier work without regard to the actual development or original purpose of the source material, not because any of it is actually true.
The Hebrew Bible doesn’t say the snake is Satan at all though.
So if you don’t care whether something is actually true, then yes ‘Satan is the first liar’ according to Christianity (duh). But it’s only true to the extent that it is an entirely mundane and pointless unfounded assertion.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
sloppyjoe2:
Do you have any article links where they talk about it? I currently can't find much at all about it.
Not at the moment. It’s tedious searching on mobile. If I feel like it tomorrow I might post something. Or you could find it yourself.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
sloppyjoe2:
after Armaggeddon, no one would die of old age or sickness
Sort of, but it’s a bit more complicated than that (because it’s nonsense). They do kind of say that being murdered by God would be the only reason anyone would die after Armageddon. But because of their made up distinction between ‘immortality’ and ‘everlasting life’, the official position is that people on earth would still need to eat and breathe etc to stay alive, meaning they could otherwise still die. So they just don’t really talk about it.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
sloppyjoe2:
Don't JWs believe that for the entire millennial reign, humans will be growing back to perfection?
Yes (though the Bible doesn’t say that). See also What does the Bible really teach about the 1,000 years?
But you said JWs believe that people won’t die anymore after Armageddon, which is not what they believe.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
slopplyjoe2:
Speaking of the tree of life. It reappears in Revelation 22. Since the Bible indicates this is the way Adam and Eve would live forever, I conclude that that is the way God in Revelation 21 makes “death no more.”
It isn’t so much a ‘reappearance’ as unimpressive plagiarism of the story in Genesis and rehashed imagery from Ezekiel.
JWs believe that people won’t die after Armageddon.
No, they say that people won’t die (unless they do*) after a final spate of killing by God after a ‘final test’ after the 1,000 years, though the Bible refers to a final attack by enemy nations rather than a ‘final test’. And they get everything else wrong about (what the Bible says about) the 1,000 years too.
*The Watch Tower Society allows for God to “annihilate” anyone who ‘sins’ after the ‘final test’ (The Watchtower, 15 August 2006, p. 31), but suggests it would be “very unlikely”.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
slimboyfat:
According to the Bible the devil is “the father of lies”. It’s fair enough reading Genesis in different ways (many, including Christadelphains, see no devil there at all) but in terms of the Christian Bible’s own interpretation of itself, it is clear the devil was the first liar.
Sure, if we pretend the Bible is actually this homogeneous consistent thing rather than the reality that it is stories built on stories built on stories.
The snake in Genesis is derived from the snake in the Epic of Gilgamesh. There was no 'Satan the Devil' at the time Genesis was written (during the Neo-Babylonian period, but also definitely not if one wants to pretend it was written even earlier). Satan (as an individual rather than a generic concept) was borrowed from later Persian beliefs.
It hardly matters that Christians later decided that their stories represent the Bible 'interpreting itself'.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
Sea Breeze:
The fruit is just a manifestation of the core issue
Yeah, that's why it was urgent that they be prevented from eating the fruit of the other magical tree (Genesis 3:22-24). 🙄
just a heads up that the english version with the changed cover is now up on jw.com.. i haven’t yet read it but if any you have the time i’m looking forward to people’s insights.. in the meantime i must find a red 🍷.
cheers,.
ozzie (of the ‘is he still here?’ class ).
Lots of word games in the articles. In addition to the obvious semantic nonsense about what they call their ‘shunning’, there is also a conspicuous reference to a supposed ‘personal decision’ about ‘marking’ where the ‘decision’ has already been stipulated:
if we notice a fellow Christian who shows such a disobedient spirit, we will make a personal decision not to associate with him for social occasions or recreation
Notice how it’s not a personal decision about whether or not the person will continue to associate, but the ‘decision’ is to not associate. This nonsense is akin to the distinction that a person won’t be disfellowshipped removed for ‘accepting a blood transfusion’ but they’ve supposedly ‘disassociated by their actions’ anyway.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
🤦♂️
