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Posts by zagor
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Local Needs - Apostate Warning!!
by hopetofade inhad a very interesting local needs part last nite - warning against apostate activity in our area, as well as the dangers of the internet.
the elder giving the talk discussed how he googled "watchtower" and a whole boatload of sites came up, such as silent lambs, etc.
"we need to stay away from these.
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zagor
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Does Genesis 1:26 support Devine Trinity???
by zagor ini've seen several comments about trinity, so here goes another one: .
please read again genesis 1:26
this is very interesting paragraph and many times is being used as a proof of trinity as it says let us create .
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zagor
OR as politicians would put it - "We can agree to disagree"
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Kingdom Hall Spankings
by JH inmost meetings i went to, children were brought to the washrooms in the back to be disciplined.
often i could hear a child yell or cry due to the spanking given by the parent.
people in the hall would have that look on their face meaning that it was alright to discipline a child by spanking him.
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zagor
Oh man that bring sore memories, I've had my guts full when two dubass elders came to my sister the other day (she wasn't coming to meetings ever since she gave birth 10 months ago - actually she almost died having something called placenta privia and not wanting blood) anyway those two idiots came and started almost yelling at her that she must come to the meetings and if baby cries give her "appropriate discipline"
As they were there throwing out their wisdom baby started crying, sis got really distressed. Her hubby not wanting to offend them was silent. Mom was in kitchen just swallowing it all. I and gf were having a coffee at the terrace. Finally I just couldn't hold it any longer so I've said
"I suppose gentlemen you've never read the bible" - one of them went "of course we have .." So I concluded “well if you've had then you'd surely remember Genesis 33:12-14.” I've started quoting, as I did it her hubby finally found courage and asked them to leave as baby started crying more and more. What assholes the whole thing is a joke.Here are those scriptures
12 Later on he said: “Let us pull out and go, and let me go in advance of you.” 13 But he [Jacob] said to him [E'sau]: “My lord is aware that the children are delicate and sheep and cattle that are giving suck are in my charge, and should they drive them too quickly for one day, then the whole flock will certainly die. 14 Let my lord, please, pass on ahead of his servant, but may I myself continue the journey at my leisure according to the pace of the livestock that is before me and according to the pace of the children until I shall come to my lord at Se´ir:.”
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Does Genesis 1:26 support Devine Trinity???
by zagor ini've seen several comments about trinity, so here goes another one: .
please read again genesis 1:26
this is very interesting paragraph and many times is being used as a proof of trinity as it says let us create .
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Does Genesis 1:26 support Devine Trinity???
by zagor ini've seen several comments about trinity, so here goes another one: .
please read again genesis 1:26
this is very interesting paragraph and many times is being used as a proof of trinity as it says let us create .
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zagor
LoL
You are quick reader LT
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Does Genesis 1:26 support Devine Trinity???
by zagor ini've seen several comments about trinity, so here goes another one: .
please read again genesis 1:26
this is very interesting paragraph and many times is being used as a proof of trinity as it says let us create .
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zagor
LT
Love you but have to tell you that you are wrong. Modern christian scholars have tendency to chop words like elohim out of the context in order to prove trinity. I've read a number of papers published by such scholars and they are all revolving around the same issues (sometimes I wonder if they have been taught that in seminaries the way biologists are taught evolution i.e. simply accept it - don't question something that has been proven as the truth or you'll be marked a heretic.)
None of those I’ve read so far has tried to address issues raised by Hebrew born, native Hebrew speaking Hebrew scholars. And I can see now why. Here are some quotes form western Christian scholars about whom you maybe don’t hear enough these days. Sadly, they are some of the fathers of modern Christian thought.Moses uses Elohim, a noun of the plural number, from which it is used to infer that there are three persons in the Godhead. This proof, however, of so important a doctrine appears to me by no means solid. And therefore I will not insist on the word but rather warn my readers against violent interpretations of this kind. To me it is sufficient that the plural number signifies the powers of Deity, which he exerted in creating the world” (John Calvin, 1509-1564).
“From the words ‘God created’ our commentators in general deduce the mystery of the most Holy Trinity: the noun, as they conceive, denoting the Trinity of persons and the verb the unity of Essence — Unity in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. The reason assigned for this inference is that the expression in the original signifies not ‘Gods, they created,’ but ‘Gods He created.’ The Hebrews however attribute this phraseology to an idiom of their language. For the plural words Elohim and Baalim (masters) are used of men and lords, in relation to individuals, as adonim kasha = lords (plural) oppressive (singular), Isa 19:4 [“a harsh lord”], and elsewhere. I am loath indeed to countenance the Jews, unless when they have truth manifestly on their side. But from other passages of Scripture the doctrine of the Trinity can be more clearly and expressly established. And we must contend against our adversaries with stronger weapons than this [argument from Elohim], if we would not, by ignorance of their language, expose ourselves to their ridicule. I agree with the Jews in referring the usage under notice to a Hebrew idiom, but conceive that the plural noun is ascribed to God, chiefly in order to express the fullness of His excellencies, by which He diffuses Himself throughout the universe and exerts His majesty and power which are immense and inexhaustible” (John Mercer, Professor of Hebrew, Royal College, Paris, d. 1572).“The argument taken from the plural noun Elohim joined to the singular verb bara is exceedingly poor. Since by the usage of their language the Hebrews in designating honorable persons are elsewhere accustomed to employ the plural number for the singular. And this is not surely for denoting some divine mystery, but merely on account of dignity and aggrandizement” (Lambert Daneau, Opusc. Theol, p.2027. French Calvinist and Professor of Theology at Leyden, 1530-1596).
“When the word Elohim is used with verbs in the singular number, the construction is elliptical representing elohe elohim, God of gods; as Behemot is put for Behemat Behemot, fera, ferorum or the most distinguished of wild beasts. And Hochmot is put for Hochmat Hochmot, the most excellent of instructions” (Hugo Grotius: Explanation of Exod 20:1, annexed to his Notes on the Gospels. Dutch Arminian, 1538-1645. Annotations on the NT).
“The difference between Elohim of the plural number and bara of the singular does not contain a mystery but is an idiom of the Hebrew language as in Num. 32:25: and the Sons of Gad, (he) said. If Moses had joined a plural noun with singular verb to denote plurality of persons and unity of essence then when in Gen. 20:13 he speaks of God and connects the plural noun Elohim with a plural verb he would signify not only a plurality of divine persons but also a plurality of Essences (divine nature)” (Andrew Rivet, D.D. Op, Col. 1, p. 6. Professor of Theology at Leyden, 1572-1651).
“The argument sole and naked drawn from the word Elohim does not seem sufficiently valid to convince the perversity of the Jews and the determined enemies of the Holy Trinity” (Lewis Cappel, Crit. Sac, p. 690. French Protestant, Professor of Hebrew at Saumur, d. 1658. Commentary on OT).
“According to the usage of the Hebrew tongue Elohim is almost always put in the plural of majesty to indicate supreme majesty and glory” (Bethner, Lyra Proph. On Ps. 3, no. 137).
“In the Hebrew, the word for God is Elohim, of the plural number, which signifies strong, potent, mighty. And for ‘he created’ the Hebrew word is bara of the singular number: whence some learned and pious expositors have deduced the doctrine of the Trinity of persons in the Unity of the divine essence. Others, among whom are divines, who are likewise learned and religious conceive the words will not warrant any such deduction. The proof of the Trinity from this place is denied by them because first, the phrase joining words of different numbers is a Hebraism. Secondly the words, though indefinitely they may import a plurality, do not precisely and determinately note or design a Trinity. Thirdly, the word Elohim with a verb of the singular number is ascribed to strange gods. Exod 20:3. Fourthly, the word Elohim is used sometimes of a particular person of the Trinity as of the Holy Ghost, v. 2 of this chapter and Ps. 45:6 it is used of the Son. [This is true, but of course it does not mean that the Son was part of an eternal God-Family, AB]. And yet there is only One Son, and one Holy Ghost. Fifthly, those ancient Fathers who were most skilful in the Hebrew tongue make no mysterious exposition of the words bara Elohim. For these reasons, this place is no good proof of the Trinity against the Anti-Trinitarians especially if it be taken alone or set in the forefront of any conflict with them…” (abridged from Ley. Assembly’s Annotations. Subdean of Chester, Annotations on the Pentateuch).
“The word Elohim, though in its declension it is plural number, yet the sense of the word is singular. It is sometimes used to signify the Godhead [If he means the Trinity, this is not right, AB], sometimes applied to each of the persons singly, and so no argument can be based on it” (Dr. Goodwin. Works, Vol. 2, Of the Knowledge of God the Father, p. 5. Member of the Assembly of Divines, 1600-1679).“Some conclude that the former word Elohim imports a plurality of persons and the latter a Unity of Essence. But others deny that any such peculiar meaning ought or can be gathered from that which is indeed no more than an idiom and propriety of the Hebrew language. So that Elohim applied to others besides God is often joined with a singular number” (Dr. South, D.D. Sermons, Vol. 4, p. 298. Prebendary of Westminster, 1633-1716, Considerations Concerning the Trinity).
“The argument taken from the plural noun Elohim joined either to a singular or plural verb does not very strongly aid the orthodox cause, but exposes it to the derision of the infidels” (abridged from F. Spannheim, Op., Tome 3, p. 1209).
“We do not believe that any argument can be deduced from the plural termination of the noun Elohim for a plurality of persons in the Essence of the Godhead. This doctrine requires to be supported by clear passages taken especially from the New Testament. It is an idiom of the Hebrew language that nouns denoting dominion, even when the subject relates only to an individual are put in the plural number to signify excellence or a plurality of distinguished qualities. Thus in Genesis 24:9, adonim is employed respecting Abraham. In Exodus 22:11 Baal is in its plural form and means one lord or owner; and in Ps. 45: 6, 7 Elohim is used both of God the Father and of Solomon as a type of Christ [showing that Elohim is a single individual!]. The word is sometimes used of an angel (Gen. 32: 28, 30; Hosea 12:3; Exod 3:4; Jud. 13:22), indeed of one man (Exod. 4:16; 7:1) and is construed sometimes with a verb in the singular number and sometimes in the plural” (Philip Limborch, Theol Christ, Bk 1, ch. 2, sec 11, Professor of Theology at Amsterdam, 1633-1712. Commentaries).
“Elohim has a plural ending but very often and always when the One Supreme God is spoken of, a singular signification. Accordingly we sometimes find it joined to a verb, adjective or pronoun in the singular number on account of its singular signification and sometimes to one in the plural number on account of its plural termination. No mystery lies in this. And they who infer from this both the unity of God and a plurality of persons in the Godhead not only show themselves to be void of true critical skill, but by producing and urging such weak and frivolous arguments in its defense do a manifest injury to the cause which they are so zealous to support and establish” (Abraham Dawson, Rector of Ringfield, Suffolk. A New Translation of the First Five Chapters of Genesis, 1763).
“The original word for God is a very remarkable word occurring for the most part in the plural and yet usually connected as in Gen. 1:1 with a verb in the singular. The evidence however, drawn by some from this fact in proof of the Trinity, is not in itself conclusive, because a similar idiom in Hebrew in respect to words denoting ‘rank, authority, eminence, majesty,’ is by no means uncommon (see Exod. 21:4; Isa. 19:4; Mal. 1:6; Ps. 58:11). The use of the plural in such cases seems to be merely for the purpose of giving to the word greater fullness, emphasis, and intensity of meaning” (Professor George Bush, Professor of Hebrew and Oriental Languages, NY City University. Notes on Genesis, 1838).
If you have read it all then have a coffee, its on me
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Can disfellowshipping a person be harmful to their spirituality?
by JH inthe jw org wants us to be almost perfect.
the slightest fault that we do, we are treated as if we are entirely bad, then we get df'd.. it's an "all or nothing" way of thinking that can be spiritually dangerous.. example: if a jw is caught smoking, and becomes df'd because of this, that person may feel free to do even worse sins, because they can't be more df'd than they are right now.
so disfellowshipping a person for something as small as smoking or playing lotto, can be counter productive for the sinner.. it's like puting a person in jail for a petty crime.
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zagor
Example: If a JW is caught smoking, and becomes DF'd because of this, that person may feel free to do even worse sins, because they can't be more DF'd than they are right now.
Story of my life -
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I went through with it!
by Frog ini gave blood as planned yesterday, and it weren't all that bad!
anyone who says it doesnt hurt and feel uncomfortable is telling fibs though!
all that passes relatively quickly, and it's all over within 20minutes at the most.
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zagor
IT was a noble thing to do, that’s all I can say.
Wonder if they’d DF someone for giving blood too, hmm, they would!
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Are young JWs staying in or moving out of the borg?
by zagor inreally, just wondering if new generation of dubs is mostly faithful or tempted to try it all out.
are they faithful to the mother borg or are they starting to question it all.
i mean 10 to 20 years ago it took ages to come across some undesirable info about the borg, but now it is everywhere.
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zagor
They will tell you the young people leaving is just a sign of the end, but it's more a sign of mismanagement and deception that with time has become exposed.
Maybe it is the end. The end of borg. (just a thought)
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Are young JWs staying in or moving out of the borg?
by zagor inreally, just wondering if new generation of dubs is mostly faithful or tempted to try it all out.
are they faithful to the mother borg or are they starting to question it all.
i mean 10 to 20 years ago it took ages to come across some undesirable info about the borg, but now it is everywhere.
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zagor
Really, just wondering if new generation of dubs is mostly faithful or tempted to “try it all out”. Are they faithful to the “mother borg” or are they starting to question it all.
I mean 10 to 20 years ago it took ages to come across some “undesirable” info about the borg, but now it is everywhere.
The other thing is don’t they feel urge to live their lives, go dating, finish university, have a normal family like any normal teen? Are there any indications of change of tide? What do you see around where you are?
