Posts by kid-A

42

"....you will be like gods, knowing good and evil."

by Lilycurly in

i know this has been mentioned before, but i'd like to bring that question to the front again.

not only from a jw's perspective, but also from all other christians.. who lied to man and woman in the eden story?.

yahweh god says to men: 17 "nevertheless of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you are not to eat, for on the day you eat of it you shall most surely die.

kid-A

The myth of original sin in the garden of eden bears striking similarities to the ancient Greek myth of Prometheus. In many aspects, Satan could be considered a benefactor of man who, like Prometheus, seeks to expose the arrogance of the gods by giving mere "mortals" the gift of intellect and free will. Rather tellingly, the angelic name of Satan is "LUCIFER" from the latin meaning "bearer of light":

From Wikpedia:

The Prometheus myth bears striking similarities to the Adamic myth of the fall of man. The Promethean fire and the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge can be considered semiotic synonyms; there are clear links between Pandora and Eve. In fact the euphemistic name for Satan's former angelic form, Lucifer -- actually, a Latin name for the planet Venus -- literally means "light bearer," which seems to hint at the image of Prometheus carrying the divine fire down to man. Of course, Satan was not called Lucifer until St. Jerome translated the Hebrew phrase heilel ben-schahar in the Latin Vulgate - many centuries after the account of the Fall of Man was written, making a Prometheus-Lucifer/Satan connection rather unlikely.

Such a reading seems to identify Yahweh as Zeus and the serpent/Satan as the Prometheus figure. This reading is problematic for Judeo-Christian readers, since it seems to suggest that Yahweh is jealous, vengeful and keen to restrict humankind, while presenting Satan as a Prometheus-like champion of humanity. Many Satanists have accepted Prometheus as an aspect of Satan. (see the article Satanism) However, there is no actual evidence of borrowing between these two cultures. Old Testament scholarship and that of the contemporary cultures (Hittitology, Assyriology, and Egyptology) show that the beginning of Genesis is modeled more in-line with Ancient Near Eastern myth, so if there is any borrowing, it would be more likely that the Greeks borrowed from an ANE culture.

24

Materialism and those with "spiritual experiences"

by slimboyfat in

jw
friends

more and more i find myself coming to a materialist view of the world.

i don't believe in afterlife, ghosts, angels, auras, astrology, revelations and the like.

so what am i to make of people who claim to have spiritual experiences?

kid-A

Is there another possibility that allows for the integrity both of materialism and of persons claiming such experiences?

Yes. Its called neuroscience:

Neural correlates of religious experience

European Journal of Neuroscience Volume 13 Page 1649 - April 2001




Nina P. Azari, Janpeter Nickel, Gilbert Wunderlich, Michael Niedeggen, Harald Hefter, Lutz Tellmann, Hans Herzog, Petra Stoerig, Dieter Birnbacher and Rüdiger J. Seitz
Abstract The commonsense view of religious experience is that it is a preconceptual, immediate affective event. Work in philosophy and psychology, however, suggest that religious experience is an attributional cognitive phenomenon. Here the neural correlates of a religious experience are investigated using functional neuroimaging. During religious recitation, self-identified religious subjects activated a frontal–parietal circuit, composed of the dorsolateral prefrontal, dorsomedial frontal and medial parietal cortex. Prior studies indicate that these areas play a profound role in sustaining reflexive evaluation of thought. Thus, religious experience may be a cognitive process which, nonetheless, feels immediate.

Recent neuropsychological and functional imaging studies suggest that the prefrontal cortex holds representations of knowledge structured in the form of cognitive schemas ( Partiot et al., 1995 ). Cognitive schemas are mental representations containing organized prior knowledge about specific domains, inclusive of specifications of the causal relations among the attributes therein ( Taylor & Crocker, 1981 ). Religious attributions are made in accordance with religious schemas, which consist in organized knowledge about religion and religious issues, and include reinforced structures for inferring religiously related causality of experienced events ( Spilka & McIntosh, 1995 ). Prefrontally localized schemas manage such memories stored as representations in posterior brain areas ( Grafman & Hendler, 1991 ), and the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex is critical for memory retrieval and conscious monitoring of thought ( Fletcher et al., 1998 ; McIntosh et al., 1999 ; Duncan et al., 2000 ; Gallagher et al., 2000 ). The medial parietal area activated in the religious subjects was the precuneus, which has strong anatomical connections to prefrontal cortex ( Goldman-Rakic, 1988 ; Petrides & Pandya, 1984 ), and plays a key role in visual memory ( Fletcher et al., 1995 ). The dorsomedial frontal area we observed corresponds to the presupplementary motor area (pre-SMA) ( Rizzolatti et al., 1998 ). Pre-SMA receives strong inputs from the prefrontal cortex, as well as from the cerebellum ( Luppino et al., 1993 ), the latter of which now is understood to participate in a wide variety of both cognitive and noncognitive processes ( Allen et al., 1997 ). Converging evidence from both animal and human studies indicates that pre-SMA is important in automatically controlling the readiness for action processed by lateral parieto-frontal circuits ( Deiber et al., 1991 ; Tanji et al., 1996 ), and sustaining the preparation to act based upon the current contents of working memory ( Jahanshahi et al., 1995 ; Haxby et al., 2000 ).

Thus, we suggest that religious experience may be a cognitive process, mediated by a pre-established neural circuit, involving dorsolateral prefrontal, dorsomedial frontal and medial parietal cortex. Because religious attributions are made in anomalous or ambiguous situations, when a person does not know what to expect or what to do, yet actively and persistently seeks a solution, a persistent, internally generated 'readiness' emerges, which subsequently serves to re-activate the religious schema in the presence of salient religious cues ( Proudfoot, 1985 ). For the religious subjects of this study, biblical Psalm 23 was the salient religious cue. There is substantial evidence from the psychology of religion to suggest that people are 'prepared' for religious experiences ( Spilka et al., 1996 ). This 'readiness' is probably mediated by the dorsomedial frontal cortex, leading to the commonly reported felt immediacy of religious experience. The experience, however, becomes religious when the subject has consciously identified it as consistent with the subject's own religious schema ( Proudfoot, 1985 ). This cognitive process most probably involves the dorsolateral prefrontal and medial parietal cortex ( Fletcher et al., 1995 ; Partiot et al., 1995 ). Consequently, subsequent self-initiated religious actions will reinforce the subject's personal religious schema ( Proudfoot, 1985 ; Spilka & McIntosh, 1995 ).

F ig . 1. Significant activations for the contrast 'religious-recite' vs. 'rest' in religious subjects, rendered onto canonical T1-weighted image of SPM97d (P < 0.001, uncorrected for multiple comparisons). Shown are the left, dorsal and right view of the brain. Scans for each subject were realigned and spatially normalized onto the PET template, and smoothed using an isotropic Gaussian kernel with FWHM set at 20 mm. The SPM grey matter threshold was set to its default value. For task comparisons, an ancova (analysis of covariance) model was fitted to the data for each voxel.

29

Best wrong number ever!

by Nosferatu in

jw
friends

sometimes, it's nice to get a reminder that there are people out there who are crazier than my parents.

this was one of those times.. this morning, i was brushing my teeth when the phone rang.

now, when someone phones at 6:45am, it's usually pretty important.

kid-A

Go buy a solo Clarinet CD, call Ms. Kruch, place the receiver on the stereo speaker, turn up the volume and shout "Hi Ms. Kruch, its Alneau! Any messages for me?"

43

Drop Dead Gorgeous!

by Outaservice in

jw
friends

back when i was attending kingdom halls, our circuit had a lot of 'drop dead gorgeous' women, many whom were married to the geekiest looking guys.

i always asked myself, "how did these 'dorks' do it"!.

was this because selection was limited, or was this just a peculiarity in our area?

kid-A

I think the sisters outnumber the guys by about at least 5 to 1.

Thats the answer. I dont get it either. There are always just way more young women than men in the borg. My theory is, far more young men (around the ages of 17-25) are leaving then young women and/or get DFd, at least, that seemed to be the case in my district. Of course we will never know since the WTS would never release those stats.

36

Why didn't you think you were in a cult?

by beautifulisfree in

jw
friends

so why didn't you think you were in a cult when you were a jdub?

my "worldly" husband always told me i was in a cult when we were dating..i didn't believe him.

but, to this day i still don't know why i didn't agree with him.

kid-A

I was born into it, and during my childhood, it was the only reality I knew......my "worldy" friends certainly seemed to realize it was a cult, and eventually, they convinced me too! LOL

25

Goodbye all........

by kittyeatzjdubs in

jw
friends

well...i'll be on the road to nashville in a few hours.

then i start my new job tomorrow morning.

i don't know when the next time will be that i'll post on the board, b/c i don't have my own computer yet, and i don't know how strict they are with the internet at the new job.

kid-A

Good luck in Nashville Jojo! Hope you're back soon!

91

Evolution still bugs me

by Geronimo in

i know there are a lot of threads on evolution and creation and i've read a few here and there.

how can complex systems arise of themselves in the face of entropy?

one evolutionist book i read used snowflakes to show this is possible.

kid-A

I will simply dissect greendawns post and use it as an outline demonstrating the factual proof of evolution and intrinsic absurdity in creationist arguments:

"Evolution is too good to be true, common sense dictates that the extreme complexity of living systems (much more so than a snow flake) had to be directed by an intelligent agent that produced everything for the glory and good pleasure of man."

1) "Evolution is too good to be true" > Nonsensical remark. Evolution is a body of factual evidence rigorously obtained in the fields of molecular biology, molecular genetics, anthropology and evolutionary anatomy. It is not intended to be "good", it is a collection of scientific facts that stand independently of emotional evaluations. Indeed, this very remark demonstrates that typical creationists try to make "emotional" arguments against cold hard objective evidence.

2) "Common sense dictates that the extreme complexity of living systems": Again, a fallacy based on ignorance and lack of understanding of how biological systems evolve and operate. Evolution takes place by gradual selection of simple, elegant biological interactions. Life began with the simplest biochemical interactions (which can be duplicated in a petri dish by a high school student) and only then proceeds to add additional simple mechanisms and structures. Single celled organisms become multicellular, multicellular organisms develop a rudimentary nervous system and sensory organs, slowly more and more systems are added through environmental pressures interacting with random genetic selection until a new species appears.

3) "had to be directed by an intelligent agent" : Again, yet another logical fallacy partly related to the points raised in comment 2. Moreover, the simple and obvious fact is that living organisms are extremely POORLY "designed", if one were to use that argument. Would a supremely intelligent being create a biological organism susceptible to cancer, diabetes, asthma, multiple sclerosis, Parkinsons, Huntingtons, Alzheimers, CJD, Kidney disease, Arthritis, Schizophrenia, etc etc? What is the answer to this question? Ah of course. Original sin! But here is the rub, the only way creationists can account for the GLARING "design flaws" in the natural world is to resort to Judeo-Christian myths created to explain away the "imperfections" of the physical world. Look at the world around you. Look at the overwhelming flaws in human anatomy, the weakness of the human mind, the fallibility of human memory, the horror of birth defects. If this was "created" by a "designer", such a being would have to be either 1) outrageously cruel to willingly be the Maestro to symphony of horrors, or 2) a complete moron.

4) "that produced everything for the glory and good pleasure of man".> Wow. Speechless. Dont even know where to begin with this one! Tell me, on what logical ground does this argument stand? First, if said deity was responsible for the universe and all that is in it, by obvious implication it is responsible for all the pain, horror and misery that exists in even greater measure. Second, comments such as this betray the fundamental ARROGANCE of the creationist position: Somehow, "human beings" represent the pinnacle of perfection, the glory of the universe, as we continue to murder each other, destroy the planet, exercise perpetual stupidity with pointless wars and religious crusades, etc etc. Newsflash: WE ARE ANIMALS. We breath the same oxygen, have sex, procreate, eat, defecate, fart, build "nests" called "houses" and live in "colonies" in pretty much the same manner as 90% of the OTHER biological organisms on this planet. We have evolved "sentience" and "awareness" of our own mortality. Yes that sets us apart within the animal kingdom. Does it make us superior? Does it suggest that in our infinite wisdom, we simply MUST have been "designed" by some sky-god sitting on a throne in the Pleiades? I think not.

Finally, GDs comments aside. The evidence for human evolution is now OVERWHELMING. Transitional forms of early hominids ranging from Australopithecines, to H. Habilis, to H. Erectus, to Cro Magnon, to corollary species such as the Neanderthals, clearly and convincingly demonstrate the gradual ANATOMICAL evolution of the entire human form over millions of years. Is it a coincidence that we share over 95% of our genetic makeup with our closest primate relatives? Is it a coincidence that these same primate relatives demonstrate remarkalbe "proto-human" behavioural patterns and cognitive abilities? Other posters have listed other pieces of factual information demonstrating the obviousness of biological evolution. It is really the choice of the individual to carefully study this information (and any first year university level biology textbook will provide all essential background info) or to continue to wear the blinders of ancient, primordial superstition.

It is FEAR that prevents creationists from accepting the facts of biological evolution. Fear of being alone in the universe, fear of the reality that this human life is ephemeral and dependent solely on our biology and nervous system. Fear of accepting a more humble position for humanity within the vastness of the universe.

15

CNN JUST ANNOUNCED DNA DOES NOT MATCH

by SWALKER in

that of karr!!!

(in jonbenet ramsey case) now what do they do???

apparently, they just got report out of colorado.... swalker

kid-A

Not surprised at all. His family had an alibi for him. Just a loon looking for attention and/or trying to escape more serious charges in Thailand.

Geez, is there ANY law enforcement agency more inept and incompetent than Boulder, CO ??? Heads will roll at the DA's office over this one.....

21

Boycott

by earthtone in

jw
friends

why do people continue to read 3rdwitnesses post?

they are long and boring!

kid-A

Thanks Lowden,

But I stole the "intellectual masturbation" line from your post! LOL

21

Boycott

by earthtone in

jw
friends

why do people continue to read 3rdwitnesses post?

they are long and boring!

kid-A

Agreed. Watchtower apologists can be refuted and exposed within a single page of a thread. How these 607 threads manage to metastasize into 60 page threads is beyond human comprehension, particularly since they transform into repetitive, circular pseudo-intellectual masturbation by the third page.

The apologists need to be dealt with and answered. However, endless pages of repetitive circular arguments are not constructive. In fact, they likely turn off the majority of lurkers who simply need an elegant, straightforward rebuttal to the apologist nonsense. That very rarely seems to happen. Instead, we get endless 607 pissing matches. I just dont even bother looking at these train-wrecks anymore.