The point is, DefD, that the entire trinitarian view doesn`t rely on just one scripture! - and noone has claimed that, perhaps with the exception of JWs. There are many, many passages in the Bible concerning the nature of christ, and his relationship with the father, and all these passages have to be viewed in relation to eachother. I`m not sure about the trinity vs non-trinity, I think perhaps this is (the one and only) part of JW-doctrine that actually might be correct, but it`s definitely not as simple as that one passage you provided as an example. That one passage, on its own and out of the entire context of the Bible, is of course absolutely no argument for the trinitarian side.
Hellrider
JoinedPosts by Hellrider
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What was Jesus implying...........................
by defd inat john 10:30 jesus said " i and the father are one" what was he implying?
was it a claim to be almighty god?
what is your thoughts and why?
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"Conscience" matters
by Lady Lee inso just how things does the wts call a matter of conscience and in the next breath condemn.. as far back as i can recall jws were told that certain things were conscience matters.
they they would go into some long detailed description of instances in the bible where such-and-such a practice was condemned.
they would add in stories of how things went terribly wrong when some people actually did the suspect action.
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Hellrider
DefD, that`s a very good and intelligent statement. But it`s much more like "regular christianity", and not very JW-like. Just a couple of questions: Have you tried telling this to the elders at your congregation? - or ask if this is an opinion they agree with? And: What exactly do you mean by "train your conscience"? Do you mean that there are certain things that are right/wrong that humans don`t intuitively feel are right or wrong? And if so, which are they?
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The U.N. and the Destruction of Babylon the Great.
by Flash inrussia and china are calling for the u.n. to be in charge of the war on terror.. leaders say u.n. must direct terror fight:.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/un_world_summit;_ylt=akz8e.tgsmf_oflkwyivqjrmwmcf;_ylu=x3odmta5bgvna3nhbhnlywnzc3jlba--.
its been my opinion that when responcibility for the war on terror gets turned over to the u.n. they will in time conclude (with god's help) that 'religion' is the main problem and has to be eliminated.. what do you think?
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Hellrider
This whole "the UN will eventually outlaw religion"-mantra that the WT has taught, and the JWs have believed for so many years, shows how little they actually understand of the world. The UN is as liberal and politically correct as you can get. Of course, they`d have to be, as the UN is an organisation made up of representatives from all the nations on the earth (!!), and represents all these nations cultures and religions. Hence, the UN couldn`t outlaw any religion, even if they wanted to. If they wanted to, for example, outlaw Islam, that would mean the arab nations and pakistand would have left the UN, and the UN would have lost almost a billion of the people they represent - and all the money these nations pay to the UN.
The UN isn`t Hitler or Stalin. But for the JWs, who themselves live under dictatorship-rule, these things are hard to understand.
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Hellrider
DefD: No, but eventually, it will! If noone is to die, eventually the earth will be filled. There will simply not be room for any more! LoL, I remember I had discussions about this with my mother. She was very much looking forward to becoming young and beautiful again, and having more children too. So she said that "Jehovah would fix it somehow". And we were not the only ones thinking about this. There were many people speculating after that artice mentioned in this thread. Some believed that eventually, we would be transported to other planets by Jehovah, so those planets could be "filled up" too. My mother didn`t like to fly, and didn`t like that solution. So she just promptly stated that God would "prbably make the earth bigger", you know expand it. Already then, with my 10th-grade knowledge of science, I knew that that wouldn`t be possible, the earth would spin out of it`s orbit, it would disrupt the entire solar system, the planets would even collide, as heavier planet need more space between them, due to increased gravity issues! I mentioned these things to her, but she just hushed me, and assured me that God would fix it.
I can honestly say that she was the stupidest woman I have ever known.
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The 1914 Doctrine and The Threat of the Egibi Business Tablets
by VM44 incould the watchtower and the jehovah's witnesses survive the discarding of their 1914 doctrine?
the doctrine that in 1914 the end of the gentile times took place, jesus took up rule in heaven.
for some reason the jws think the outbreak of world war i in 1914 is proof their prophetic calculations were correct.
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Hellrider
"The secular evidence is indeed falsified by the twenty year gap" -- meaning: the WTS says there's a twenty year gap, and the hundreds of thousands of individual pieces of evidence disagree, so all the evidence is simply false.
Ha ha! Yeah, this is the really funny part! First they create a doctrine, which they didn`t have to create in the first place! If they had only said "the 70 years refer to the period of Babylons reign over Judeah" - which began in around 607 bc (actually 609, I think, but a couple of years is no big deal), in the first place, they could have easily calculated from that year, 607 bc, and get to 1914. But noooo, they had to link the "3 1/2 times X 2" to the destruction of the temple! And so, they have to say that the entire chronology (of which they accept parts of, the parts that suits them just fine, like the return of the exiles in around 537bc) is false! In other words, Nebuchadnezzar hadn`t even taken over the reign in the year 607, which the JWs claim that he destroyed the temple! He only came to power in 605 bc, and reigned until 562 bc! So obviously, the WTS has a policy of making (unecessary) problems for themselves. Then, when the problems become common knowledge, they just lie, and say that they`re right and the rest of the world is wrong. The 607-claim is indeed the most embarassing part of JW-doctrine.
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Hellrider
Hi there. Wooow, you look just like the mean sob I assumed you`d be. Oh no, I was mistaken, you`re Satan, aren`t you?
And then the real God would show up and bring me to heaven, and he`d say: Hi there, welcome. Your room is thru that hall, on the left at the end of the corridor. There`s a minibar, cookies, an eternal pot of hot, colombian coffee, and free cable (yes, porn too). Enjoy!
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349
The 1914 Doctrine and The Threat of the Egibi Business Tablets
by VM44 incould the watchtower and the jehovah's witnesses survive the discarding of their 1914 doctrine?
the doctrine that in 1914 the end of the gentile times took place, jesus took up rule in heaven.
for some reason the jws think the outbreak of world war i in 1914 is proof their prophetic calculations were correct.
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Hellrider
Soledad summed it up best. Oh, one more funny thing:
Satan and his demons were launched out of heaven in 1914 and sent down to earth to torment humanity in its last days.
LoL, this one is one of my favorites. JWs believe, actually, that the demons were launched out twice! First in Old Testament times, before the flood, when they initially rebelled against God, under the leadership of Lucifer. They were tempted by the women of the earth, and took on human bodies, as giants, and lived on earth, fornicating with women (women liked big guys back then, more than they do now, unfortunately for me). And for this rebellion, God threw them out. Then he threw them back out again in 1914! Apparantly, somehow they must have slipped back in (thru a backdoor?). I argued about this with my mother, lots of times. She said that she believed that they must have been "hanging around" the gates of heaven, just on the outside.
The secular evidence is indeed falsified by the twenty year gap when compared with biblical chronology so the jury is still out respecting the value of such documents.
scholar JW
Scholar: You still don`t get it, do you! There IS no twenty year gap! Yes, there is a twenty year gap if you interpret the passages as saying there would be 70 years from the physical destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, but NOT if you interpret them as saying that the Babylonian reign would last for 70 years! Historians agree that the political and military power of Babylon over Judea lasted for around 70 years! So there IS no problem for all us sane people, the problem is SOLELY a problem for JWs, and their ridicolous doctrine, which again is crucial for the 1914-doctrine! So when your "celebrated WT scholars have wisely cautioned that such secular material is still subject to interpretation", this is only grasping at straws to save the 1914-doctrine! It is NOT necessary to speak against the massive academic world and its tons of proof that the temple was destroyed some 20 years later than the "celebrated WT Scholars" claim, if you have no biblical-doctrinal bias on this issue! Us normal folks can simply realise that the 70 years refer to Babylons power and influence.
You poor thing. Those mean guys at the Watchtower will probably soon be telling you that right is left, black is blue, and the moon is made of swiss cheese. And you will be obliged to believe it.
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349
The 1914 Doctrine and The Threat of the Egibi Business Tablets
by VM44 incould the watchtower and the jehovah's witnesses survive the discarding of their 1914 doctrine?
the doctrine that in 1914 the end of the gentile times took place, jesus took up rule in heaven.
for some reason the jws think the outbreak of world war i in 1914 is proof their prophetic calculations were correct.
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Hellrider
I think the same as Nicolai. They would loose a lot of members, though. But they`d get new ones, of course, fresh, naive blood, looking for salvation, the promise of everlasting life, coupled with selfrighteousness, sadism, hypocricy, sociopathy, power-hunger, etc. It will never end.
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349
The 1914 Doctrine and The Threat of the Egibi Business Tablets
by VM44 incould the watchtower and the jehovah's witnesses survive the discarding of their 1914 doctrine?
the doctrine that in 1914 the end of the gentile times took place, jesus took up rule in heaven.
for some reason the jws think the outbreak of world war i in 1914 is proof their prophetic calculations were correct.
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Hellrider
Oh God, another 607-thread? And of course, celebrated Scholar JW shows up, spewing his "The 607 date and the Gentile Times ending in 1914 is firmly grounded in Scripture"-nonsense. How many times do you have to hear it, celebrated Scholar: THERE IS NO CHRONOLOGY IN THE BIBLE! The Bible mentions 3 of the 5 Babylonian kings of that era, and only the length of the reigns of ONE of them, and this "biblical chronology" has to be "placed" in, historically/chronologically in secular history anyway, and the only way to do that is by secular history (pivotal dates). How is it even possible to NOT understand this? Anyway, myself and some others are still awaiting your reply on some questions from the previous 607 vs 587-thread, here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/96152/7.ashx
...in which you have been boasting about your "celebrated WT Scholars", and your complete and infallible bible chronology. So we have been asking you:; WHERE IS IT? Could you please show us your infallible bible chronology, lengths of reigns and all? Please? Sometime before Armageddon?
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Gods rests in the 7th part of the 7th day?
by Hellrider inthe wirdest thing about jw-doctrine is the calculations and the numbers: .
genesis: 2:1 the heavens and the earth were completed with everything that was in them.2:2 by the seventh day god finished the work that he had been doing, and he ceased on the seventh day all the work that he had been doing.
2:3 god blessed the seventh day and made it holy because on it he ceased all the work that he had been doing in creation.
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Hellrider
The wirdest thing about JW-doctrine is the calculations and the numbers:
Genesis: 2:1 The heavens and the earth were completed with everything that was in them. 2:2 By the seventh day God finished the work that he had been doing, and he ceased on the seventh day all the work that he had been doing. 2:3 God blessed the seventh day and made it holy because on it he ceased all the work that he had been doing in creation.
And according to the Bible, one day is to God like a thousand years. This is of course to be understood symbolically, that to God, time is not the same way as it is to man, but anyway, JWs interpret this literally. To them, one day is a thousand years. What I don`t understand, is why do they then calculate it to be 7 x 7 ? I mean, they believe that one creating-day is supposed to have been 7000 years, don`t they? So God separated the light from the darkness on the first day. If one day is to god like a thousand years, why do they then think it`s 7000? What scriptural basis have they for this claim? And further: If they believe this, and that we are now approaching the last thousand year of the 7000-years that is the last day,and that there has been 48 000 years since creation began, then that would mean that we are approaching the 7th part of the 7th day? And also: WHERE does the bible say, or even indicate, that God would END the world (Armageddonize it, lol, like they speculated in 1975) on the 7th part of the 7th day of creation? Where is their Biblical basis for this?