Posts by Hellrider

65

British College: Non-Muslims are "filth", "pigs" and "dogs"

by Elsewhere in

jw
friends

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2142403,00.html.

the times april 20, 2006 .

muslim students 'being taught to despise unbelievers as filth'.

Hellrider

Hellrider As my analysis shows, if one actually quotes entire passages in context, it's clear there is no Universal condemnation of Jews in the Quaran.

Abaddon: That`s ok, to a certain extent I agree with Robdar and Sad Emo. I should have mentioned in my post that the other accepted interpretation of the passage is that of the "unbelievers". It`s just that exactly who these unbelievers are, is a matter of some disagreement among the Islamic scholars...This british "college" has obviously taken the very conservative view, and attributing the "pigs and apes"-quote to jews in general. This is no so uncommon, this view is an accepted interpretation among many of the imams, and from what I remember, this is discussed thoroughly in the Hadith. The question among the theologians of Islam, is whether this passage refers to:

1) People who just won`t believe in God

2) People who are christians or jews, but are "secularised" and modern, and separate between religion and "daily life", which is something Islam traditionally is very much against. Ask any moslem, and he will say that Islam is not just a religion, it is a "way of life", it is something that affects every aspect of day-to-day-life, much in the same way as orthodox judaism.

3) Jews and christians in general, for having been on the "right path", but have failed to accept the logical conclusion to their religious history, which is Islam. The old Testament, the patriarchs, Abraham, the prophet Jesus, were all just leading up to, and preparing the way for Mohammed and the Quran, the full revelation of Gods wisdom and plans.

It`s not just as simple as your analysis, because a religion is not just the religions holy texts, it is the religions history, the current and previous practices within the religion, the current (and previous) interpretations and commentaries of the religious texts. Traditionally, the nr.3 -interpretation I outlined above, has been a common interpretation of the passages in question, and that was my point. The "jews are pigs and apes"-view (based partially on these passages) is certainly a part of the history of Islam.

Robdar:

Anyway,;it is my opinion ;that if you are going to literally interpret the Quran, then you must literally interpret the Bible And if you do, I don't see how the above is any worse than some of the stuff I've read in the Bible Seems rather mild to me

I agree that this is no worse than the Bible, especially the OT. In comparison to certain passages in the OT, yes, it is mild. But I don`t really agree in comparing the way to interpret the Quran with the way to interpret the Bible. The thing is, all "interpretation" of the Quran is done very cautiously, because the view on the Quran is that it is a work of revelation! It is not just "inspired" (what does "inspired" mean anyway, btw...), it is, according to the legend, given to mankind, literally whispered into the ear of Mohammad by an angel. The legend also says that the Quran has always existed in the heavens, and that the Quran that was given to Mohammad is just a copy of the (immaterial or material, here it is unclear) Quran that has always existed in the heavens. Needless to say, this leaves very little room for interpretation, and no room for reinterpretation. Of course, the Quran is and always was interpreted (tons of commentaries), but in my opinion, always in a very conservative and true-to-the-text-manner. My point is: It isn`t possible to compare the Bible and the Quran in matters of "literal interpretation". The Quran is the word of God, word for word, spoken directly from the mouth of Allah, via an angel (or Allah himself, the Quran gives at least three different versions of this), into the ear of Mohammad. I think personally that it is things like this that are some of the mayor obstacles to a secularisation of Islam.

65

British College: Non-Muslims are "filth", "pigs" and "dogs"

by Elsewhere in

jw
friends

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2142403,00.html.

the times april 20, 2006 .

muslim students 'being taught to despise unbelievers as filth'.

Hellrider

The verse Mary is quoting here, is a much discussed and controversial passage in the Quran. Just like with the Bible, "secular" scholars and conservative are arguing about what this means. The "secular" scholars will of course try to paint a prettier picture of what this verse means, just like biblical scholars try to paint a prettier picture of certain passages in the OT. But a conservative interpretation of 5:60 is probably best, because this verse is clarified by an earlier verse:

Sura 4 : 46 "Of those who are Jews (there are those who) alter words from their places and say: We have heard and we disobey and: Hear, may you not be made to hear! and: Raina, distorting (the word) with their tongues and taunting about religion; and if they had said (instead): We have heard and we obey, and hearken, and unzurna it would have been better for them and more upright; but Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief, so they do not believe but a little."

The jews are viewed as pigs and dogs, as a punishment from Allah. There is an inner tension in the Quran, on the views on jews and christians. On the one hand, they are "the people of the book", as they are part of the religious (monotheistic) tradition that lead to Islam! - and are therefore to be respected. On the other hand, they refuse to accept the new religion of Islam, they refuse to embrace the logical conclusion to their religious history, which, in the eyes of the moslems, is Islam. So in the Quran, they are both celebrated and condemned. That is the truth. The islamic "scholars" will of course choose either the one or the other of these views, depending on their hidden agenda and views. But you will rarely hear the "people of the book"-view coming from the mouth of a fundamentalist. Actually, the verses where jews are referred to as "people of the book" are rarely mentioned by anyone, and when they are mentioned, it is always in a context where Islam has to defend itself.

114

Best Committee Meeting Yet - They threatened to call the police on me!

by SickofLies in

yeee haaa!

i'm an outlaw now!

the elders warned me that if any i talk about anything said in the judicial committee or post any pictures i've taken, i'm in big trouble and i don't want these people as enimies!

Hellrider

I listened to it too. It was interesting that they the whole time were asking about how you got all this information, and how you met certain people, etc. Also, they mentioned both the UN-thing and 607 on their own initiative, so I guess they are aware that there is something rotten in Denmark, they`re just to stupid and brainwashed to realise the significanse of these things. But I`m curious: SOL, what exactly is it that you are tryong to accomplish? Do you want to get DFed or not? Because, you are confronting them with your doubts, and showing how you have good reasons for them, with the U.N, the pedophilia, 607 etc, but when they asked you certain things, like "do you still believe Jehovah is directing this organisation" (or whatever), you were evasive and "took the 5th" on that. So, are you trying to avoid DFing? What exactly is it you want from them? Jw:

Yes no doubt Jw elders make human errors and did the apostles

I had no idea the JW elders did the apostles. I thought that was against the JW-interpretation of the Bible. No, seriously, the elders are not the apostles! How can you even have the audacity to mention them (or any other "highstanding JWs") in the same breath as the apostles?? No other normal church does that (except the catholics view on the pope, that is), but you JWs have been brainwashed to believe that the elders are "spirit-directed", just as you have been taught to believe that the 144K are JWs only, and that they will take part in Christs government in heaven, and "rule as princes". Talk about having a Messiah-complex. Of course, aside from being a Messiah-or God-complex, it is also making a complete mockery of the Bible and Christianity as a whole. And may I add: Matthew 24:4,5, Matthew 24:11,12. You sir, are here representing the ANTI-CHRIST!

22

What's Your Automatic Reaction When You See A JW Coming To Talk To You?

by minimus in

jw
friends

do you want to run, hide, confront?

?

Hellrider

kill

(just kidding, lol )

58

DO SOMETHING

by ArtfulDodger in

i see this site gets thousands of postings every day .. from literally thousands of members, mostly ex-dubs, from all over the world.. rather than simply go on moaning and whinging about the big nasty org why don't you all put your efforts into something positive ... do something.. ok - the org is evil .. but it exists ... and simply whining on about it doesn't change that.

with your efforts directed at something positive, you could do wonders for .

.for anything you choose.. hundreds of real charities could do with your support - to help the really needy .

Hellrider

Just a question for ArtfulDodger : What exactly do you mean the members of the board should be doing? Of course, the goal is to shut down the Watchtower. I guess most here would agree on that. One way to do that effectively, would be to all get together and raise money for a B-52, and bomb that building into the ground. On the other hand, then they`d probably get a kick out of the "persecution", and raise another building somewhere else (as I assume the money is in a bank). So, the only wayto effectively fight the WTS, is to expose them, flood the internet with information about their history, their hidden agendas and activities, and also proper understanding of what the Bible really (really) teaches. In addition to that, there are many people who are engaged in legal activities and suits against the WTS, and many have written books. So I`m wondering: What else is there? I mean, what else can be done? What are ex-JWs doing wrong? Did we miss something?

12

"False Prophecies or Wrong Expectations" how do JW's decide between the 2?

by booker-t in

i have mentioned before that my jw's mother who has been a "devout" jw's since 1965 has defended the wts for over 40 years.

when i mention "false prophecies" and the wts she always says that jw's are not false prophets they just had several "wrong expectations".

i am so confused on this because i am wondering just what do jw's consider a "false prophet"?

Hellrider

I believe I can answer your question on this. According to the WTS:

I am so confused on this because I am wondering just what do JW's consider a "false prophet"?

Answer 1: Any religious organisation that is not Jehovahs Witnesses.

How do they make the decision on who is and who is not a false prophet?

Answer 2: See answer 1.

190

UPDATE 2: Since Freedom is Free, Why is it Taxed?

by RichieRich in

jw
friends

yesterday after school i had to go work on a project with friends.

mom said be home by 5, but there was a huge accident a mile from where i live, and i sat on the road for like 10 - 12 minutes, and was 5 minutes late getting home.

mom was there (didn't go to work- guess why) and she was pissed.

Hellrider

Nelly:

Poppy may not have said it to your liking but she prolly hit the nail right on the head on how his mum is feeling right now, whether we agree with how his mum is dealing with it or not, theres no way she was gonna pat him on the head and say 'there there' and no matter what views anyone has on what is and isnt abuse, slagging his mother off on the here, where the sanctimonious little dubbies who turned him in found him in the first place (and would prolly get as much pleasure telling his mum whats being said) prolly isnt gonna make anything easier for richie at home right now.

It doesn`t matter. It simply doesn`t matter that his mother is outraged now. This is because when JW-parents are in outrage over their kids abandoning their religion, these parents have no right to be angry. They may believe they have to right to be upset, but they really don`t. Not just because their religion is a hoax (of course, because to them, it`s not), but because every 18-yearold has the right to live the way they choose to live. To that, you can argue that "all parents have the right to want the best for their kids, and guide them in the right direction", and this is where we get down to what really is the issue: The JW-parents have no right to be upset, because they are (fucking objectively!) wrooong, wrooong, wroooong, about what is in their childrens best interest. This is because they are brainwashed members of an insane cult. Of course, in their own perspective, they are not. And that`s why there is no chanse of "building a bridge", finding "common ground" between a JW-parent and a kid-on-the-way-out. There is no chanse of that, at least not at first. It has to be a confrontation, there is no other way, because in the brainwashed mind of the JW-parent, the child is choosing Satan over Jehovah. Not only is the child going to die a horrible death in Armageddon, but the childs actions makes the mother ashamed, both in the eyes of the others (after all, in JW-land, appearance is everything), but also in her/his own eyes, for "failing" in the effort to keep the child "in the flock". And how can you argue with something like that? No, there is no common ground. The best course of action, when dealing with superbrainwashed JW-parents, is to confront them hard. Move out, break all contact with them until they come crawling back, asking for forgiveness for being such shitty parents. A JW-parent has to be brought to his/her knees to have some real truth knocked into their thick skulls, before there can be any hope of a relationship between parent and child again.

65

British College: Non-Muslims are "filth", "pigs" and "dogs"

by Elsewhere in

jw
friends

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2142403,00.html.

the times april 20, 2006 .

muslim students 'being taught to despise unbelievers as filth'.

Hellrider

The Times has obtained extracts from medieval texts taught to the students in which unbelievers are likened to pigs and dogs. The texts are taught at the Hawza Ilmiyya of London,

How dare they call a school like that a "college". Schools that do this, should immediately lose all the funds they get from the state. Of course, that won`t happen, because of our weak, politically "correct" politicians.

I'm studying Christian church history as part of my degree; This has brought me into contact with the works of eminent theologians such as Martin Luther - an avid hater of the Jews (and from whom it has been suggested that Hitler drew some of his reasons for implementing their extermination). So, by the same token, just because I've read Luther, does that mean I am commanded to hate the Jews or do I see his vitriol as a stage in church history from which I should learn and develop?

Basically, I agree. Maybe Islam too could become secularised, like christianity did. 500 years ago, we were burning "witches" on the stake, and blasphemy resulted in the death penalty. And all non-christians could be killed on sight. Our christian past is nothing to be proud of. BUT: It took christianity several hundred years to become secularised. In a world of nuclear, biological and chemical weapons, we can`t afford to have the same patience with Islam. It has to become secularised, and damn fast too! Unfortunately, they seem to be going the other way, more and more turn to extremism. And all the while, we are having millions of them in Europe allready, and more are coming. And all the while, they are hating us more and more every second. It sure doesn`t look good!

11

Bones of the Nephilim have been discovered on the banks of the Euphrates.

by vomit in

gotch ya, .

well no they havent, i am sure you are all aware of the axim "extraordinary claims should be backed by extraordinary evidence".

where are the bones of the nephilim?

Hellrider

Hm, how big were they supposed to be? There has been found skeletons and skulls of a lost native-american tribe that were huuuge: Approximately 8 feet tall:

http://www.geocities.com/saqatchr/page46.html

...(speculating)...hmm..could these be the Nephilim? No, because they were all wiped out in the flood...and the tower of Babel wasn`t build until much later, and of course, this is when the people of the earth were struck with that whole language-confusion-thing by Jehovah and then they spread over the earth (how they got across the ocean, I do not know), so that can`t be it...

(it`s so funny to speculate in JW-"logic" sometimes...)

190

UPDATE 2: Since Freedom is Free, Why is it Taxed?

by RichieRich in

jw
friends

yesterday after school i had to go work on a project with friends.

mom said be home by 5, but there was a huge accident a mile from where i live, and i sat on the road for like 10 - 12 minutes, and was 5 minutes late getting home.

mom was there (didn't go to work- guess why) and she was pissed.

Hellrider

I would just like to repeat a comment from the JW-troll Oroborus (Eduardo) from that other thread:

I think there is one lesson, however, for others similarly situated as yourself, and that is that they should be better prepared to face the consequences or for exiting the Organization if that is what they desire. I am a bit shocked that you seem to have put no thought into savings or planning for your future. In my opinion a young man of 18 should be prepared to leave the nest, including establishing your own bank acct, savings, part-time job, and cell-phone (when you are able to enter into a contract for one). I hope you will be able to pull things together and be truly free AND independent.

...bank account, savings, part-time job, all of that doesn`t help much when dealing with JW parents. They`ll take it all away, make problems for you, all under the disguise of "parenting", while it in fact is an attempt to hold you down and push you back into the cult. Oroborus knows this, of course, but wants to paint a prettier picture of JW-mentality. I bet Richies mothers dream is that he repents, gets down on his knees, cries and says he`s sorry and begs to be forgiven by Jehobah (or, "the elders", which is his proper name). When I was in a similar situation (a couple of years younger, with a young pioneer from the congregation assigned to my case, as I had no father by that point), I eventually had a back-pack all packed and ready in my room, and had decided to run away. Luckily, by that time, things cooled down, and they gave up on me. Who knows what might have happened if not. If people only knew the pressure JW-kids are under when trying to get out...

Lol,but you calling it "taxes on freedom" is cool though, shows you have a sense of humor on this. You are very brave man, allready planning for an appartment and stuff at the age of 18. You sound very strong! To me, all of that crap made me really depressed.