Rolling Repairs?
I'm terrible at this.....
GGG
well, just found out the day before yesterday my company is going out of business, so i'm starting my own.
here's the plan.... .
mobile paint repair.
Rolling Repairs?
I'm terrible at this.....
GGG
quote: what i am waiting for is one of their rank and file elders to get sued over this issue and some of the hospital liaison puppets to lose everything he owns because of it.
this point was brought up in the "big news has started" thread (and is now buried on page 3).
interesting point, and i wonder if anyone has ever heard of a case where elders have been successfully sued over judicial matters (slander / libel) or wrongful death (blood)?
Jean,
I'm so very sorry for what you went through. You wrote:
Believe me, whether or not you wish to believe that they have 'authority', they do. It was not the society telling me to stay with my ex, it was their representative, the elders.
You stayed in a horribly abusive relationship because the elders told you to, and because of your indoctorination you truly believed that the elders had authority over you. But my point is this: What if those same elders, because of their indoctrination, did what they did because they truly believed that the WTS had authority over them? They aren't flying solo here, they are only window washers and ditch diggers in real life. They do what ''God's Spirit Directed Organization'' tells them, just like the rest of us did.
I can't say it enough: if you give advice in an acknowledged position of authority, you are responsible for the consequences. Religious bodies have been shielded from this consequence for far too long, at a tremendous human cost. It is time that the religious legal loophole is closed for good.
I respectfully disagree. I don't trivialize what you went through as a result of uneducated elders giving you terrible advice, and what it must have cost you physically and emotionally. But I do believe that very many elders are just as completely blinded and indoctrinated as the rest of us were. Suing sincere elders is just punishing a different victim, then. That being said, I do think that those who sit at the head of the religious table in Brooklyn should absolutely answer for their sins. And I mean 'sins' in the truest sense of the word.
GGG
.
and is it just a peck or a nice wet one on the nose?.
jeff [of the i am bored tonight class]
I kiss my dog, but only on the head, and not that often... The cats, however, get kissed all the time! On the nose mostly ... the furry part....
I yuvs dem alllllll !!
GGG
Ok, I've lost my mind, excuse me while I go find it again.......
quote: what i am waiting for is one of their rank and file elders to get sued over this issue and some of the hospital liaison puppets to lose everything he owns because of it.
this point was brought up in the "big news has started" thread (and is now buried on page 3).
interesting point, and i wonder if anyone has ever heard of a case where elders have been successfully sued over judicial matters (slander / libel) or wrongful death (blood)?
They will successfully prove that the society, and the elder body, knew that the scriptural basis for the doctrine was shaky at best, and that the secular facts were purposly misconstrued to the average jw. In short, that their injured or lied to jw relative was lied to purposly.
How do the elders know any more than the R&F that the scriptural basis for the blood doctorine is shaky at best? I'm no dummy, and I am coincidently interested in medicine, and 4 years ago my son nearly died and the blood issue came up. And yet still, it took me years after that, reading this board and similar ones before I truly stopped believing the blood doctorine as described by the WTS. My husband still believes it, heart and soul.
I believe that the law will eventually recognize cult members as people incapable of making certain decisions
Elders and Ministerial Servants are cult members, too. I'd say the majority are just as brainwashed as the rest of us were.
With position comes authority. With authority comes responsibility
Seriously, though, what authority do elders have? In reality, they have not one shred of authority that isn't specifically handed them by Brooklyn. They are told what letters to read to the congregation, when to read them, what letters to keep secret, what to say in their public talks, what to say at assemblies, how to do shepherding calls and what to say on them, what to wear on stage, how long their hair can be, etc, etc, etc. That is not my definition of authority.
speaking for an organization you know to be corrupt will get you into the same position as the Enron management team
I agree that it should. But I disagree that all elders see the WTS as corrupt. Even after I left because of doctorinal issues, I didn't believe it was. Again, reading boards like this one are what brought it to my attention at all. Faithful, obedient JW elders would never be on a board like this. They are members of a controlling cult, just like the rest of us were.
GGG
quote: what i am waiting for is one of their rank and file elders to get sued over this issue and some of the hospital liaison puppets to lose everything he owns because of it.
this point was brought up in the "big news has started" thread (and is now buried on page 3).
interesting point, and i wonder if anyone has ever heard of a case where elders have been successfully sued over judicial matters (slander / libel) or wrongful death (blood)?
People are free to choose their actions, but not the consequences of their actions. If your husband is a good man, and I'm sure he is, then someone sueing him for damages over, say, his advice to them on blood as a representative of the society, it is merely a consequence of his stand.
I disagree. I think it is a consequence of their own stand. Everyone makes their own decisions in their own lives. Maybe a JW is 'encouraged' by the elders not to take blood, and because they are afraid of being DF'd, they don't take blood. Or maybe they refuse because they truly believe it is God's will. Either way, their compliance is on their own head, imho. If you really want to sue someone, go to the top.
Actions will have consequences, usually. As many ex-elders here can tell you, they have to live with the guilt over things they did as elders, even if they were well intentioned at the time. Others feel guilt over raising their kids as JWs, and not being able to get them out now. Another good intention gone wrong. My point is that the enemy is not the well-intentioned elder. The individual elder is more tangible than a multi-million dollar corporation, though, and can easily end up as the fall guy. I don't think the individual elder is any more culpable than any other brainwashed member of the JWs, however. Just a bigger target.
GGG
I don't know what’s wrong but I feel like crying. What the heck is wrong with me? Do any of you ever get like this?
Yup.... all the time..... Isn't it nice how cyber-friends help though?
Why don't you read thru the ''humor'' threads here? That might cheer you up some!
(((((((LOLA))))))) <----- super duper cyber hug
GGG
quote: what i am waiting for is one of their rank and file elders to get sued over this issue and some of the hospital liaison puppets to lose everything he owns because of it.
this point was brought up in the "big news has started" thread (and is now buried on page 3).
interesting point, and i wonder if anyone has ever heard of a case where elders have been successfully sued over judicial matters (slander / libel) or wrongful death (blood)?
Dave,
I truly do see both sides of this issue. Just a few more thoughts though:
the responsibility lies on everyone’s shoulders. But, passing the buck back and forth is never going to resolve anything. An elder accepts the responsibility to lead, he should pay the consequences.
Pay the consequences for leading? Or for following? The elders are nothing more than followers themselves, really. The orders come from Brooklyn. If the elders can be sued for DFing someone, should the R&F be sued for shunning them afterwords? In a way, suing elders is like shooting the messenger. The message is handed down from the WTB&TS.
This board is full of good-hearted elders who finally said “enough”! Ask them if feeling responsibility for some of their “elder” decisions weighed on their deciding to get out. Ask them if they assisted in encouraging someone to let their love one die because of the blood issue. Then ask them if that feeling of responsibility would have been the same if they were not an elder.
And to be clear, it is the honest actions of good-hearted elders that I am defending. I have no kind words for cruel or even evil actions that some elders practice. But just as it, many times, takes something big to shake up a R&F JW and get them to leave the org, it will often take something very big to shake up an elder, especially a good-hearted one, enough to realize that this is NOT Jehovah's organization.
Life isn't fair, and I guess I'm just thinking of the good people who serve as elders because they believe it is right, and who one day will realize how wrong it all is, but who aren't quite there yet. They will happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and end up getting hurt. I agree that if there was a massive lawsuit, there would be many fewer JWs who would be willing to serve as elders. But I don't think it's the good guys who will quit.... I think the selfish types will stop being elders, because they will realize it might put them in harm's way.
A good heart is usually trumped by a manipulated mind every time.
That is so true. So how do we stop the manipulators?
GGG
quote: what i am waiting for is one of their rank and file elders to get sued over this issue and some of the hospital liaison puppets to lose everything he owns because of it.
this point was brought up in the "big news has started" thread (and is now buried on page 3).
interesting point, and i wonder if anyone has ever heard of a case where elders have been successfully sued over judicial matters (slander / libel) or wrongful death (blood)?
Dave,
Saw your post after I posted the above. I agree with most of what you wrote.
A huge lawsuit on just a few elders might make the other good hearted ones wake up and realize they are liable for what they do whether they “think” they are following god’s law or not. My comment about this possible scenario was made to bring attention to an elder’s real liability and make them THINK.
Doesn't that apply to the R&F, too, though? Aren't they responsible for ruining their children's lives, for wasting their minds by not educating themselves, etc? Why single out the elders, simply because they are in positions of 'authority', most of which means that they get to have talks several times a week.... serving on JCs isn't a regular occurance in most elders' schedules.
I agree that they are being used. I agree that they need to wake up. But the same goes for the R&F JW, too. They are being used, they need to wake up and realize that they are wasting their lives and they are endangering their children's lives (and their own!) by complying with the blood policy, for example. I don't think they need to be sued over that, however.
Just my 2 cents... again!
GGG
quote: what i am waiting for is one of their rank and file elders to get sued over this issue and some of the hospital liaison puppets to lose everything he owns because of it.
this point was brought up in the "big news has started" thread (and is now buried on page 3).
interesting point, and i wonder if anyone has ever heard of a case where elders have been successfully sued over judicial matters (slander / libel) or wrongful death (blood)?
As the Nuremburg trials illustrated, doing something immoral is not justified by 'following orders' or believing in a misguided ideal.
I'm not talking about defending elders who act in an immoral fashion. I'm talking about elders who DF those who the WT perceives as 'wrongdoers', following WT guidelines. If an elder acts reprehensibly, then by all means, sue him personally. That goes for your R&F 'brother' or 'sister', too, though. Don't single out elders...many of them do what they do because they believe it is RIGHT.
There was a doctor who believed in the benefits of a particular (and different) treatment - he was convinced that he was doing the right thing and that it was for the greater good - anyway later on patients suffered serious side effects, and some died - when the families sued him, he said he was only trying to do the right thing.
I don't know if this is a hypothetical situation, but I think that someone who accepts alternative or experimental medical treatment bears some responsiblity if that treatment fails. Experimental treatment is, by definition, unproven, and needs human 'guinea pigs' in order to determine it's effectiveness. Either way, the participants are taking a chance, but they chose to participate because they feel that the potential for personal benefit outweighs the risk of personal harm.
The same is true of JWs........ they stay JWs as long as they feel the personal benefits outweigh the personal negative effects they may experience. If they stick around because they enjoy the atmosphere and the security, then get DF'd for adultery (for example) and sue the elders because they are shunned... it's the same type of thing, imo. You know the rules, you follow the rules, and when you break the rules and someone else enforces them, you can't turn around and sue them for doing what they believe is right. Again, I'm not talking about morally reprehensible behavior.... I'm referring to elders acting as they are told by what they perceive as God's mouthpiece.
That being said, I DO think that the WTS policy-makers bear a huge responsibility for the suffering inflicted on the 'flock', for a variety of reasons. When it comes to Brooklyn, I say go for the jugular.
GGG
before coming on this forum i didn't know that the jws had changed the generation definition from literal to symbolic and i obviously predicted that this religion will be finished when that last 1914 codger dies.
when i found out that they had changed their definition i thought, bloody hell this religion is going to go on forever.
then i thought that no, they are going to fade out, then i settled on, they are going to survive just like the catholics and orthodox.
It is a way of life that 6 million people find attractive.
I don't completely agree.
The 6 million is the number of 'publishers.' How many people do you know who never went in service and still turned in a time sheet? I know several. I know even more who have no desire whatsoever to be at meetings or be a JW.... my kids come to mind.... RichieRich comes to mind . Then you have all those who were raised as JWs, whose entire family is in, and who feel they have no choice as young adults but to follow in their parents' footsteps in order to be accepted.
I do agree that there are many, many people who need the regimented lifestyle in order to feel good enough, or whatever. But I think there are an equal number who feel completely trapped, and don't have the skills to find their way out. The longer they stay in, the harder it is to leave. And imo, the worst part of the JWs is the fact that one can be so trapped. That's part of what makes it a cult.
GGG