Posts by zensim

31

Belief Poll : Please Indulge Me

by Morocco in

jw
friends

just sort of curious about this, i know it has probably been done a gazillion times but let me do it again.

1.do you believe in a personal god who takes interest in you as an individual?

2.do you believe that the bible was written by god?

zensim

Just sort of curious about this, I know it has probably been done a gazillion times but let me do it again. :)

1.Do you believe in a personal God who takes interest in you as an individual? I believe in god but I have become comfortable with not always knowing how this god works - as soon as I think I have it sussed something comes along to knock me off my 'knowingness'. I believe god as the source of all life and as such god is inside me, outside me and I am god. Maybe Oneness would be a better description. I believe you can find this god in communing with nature, laughing with children, in a moving song, in an orgasm - as much as going to church/temple. To me god is a presence that you feel, a state of grace, a way of being and I don't care what gets you there as long as it doesn't hurt others. I believe god is interested in me as much as the next individual, no more, no less. I am unique, but not so special that I have god's favour above anyone else.

2.Do you believe that the Bible was written by God? Only in terms that everything is born of this presence. It is not an ultimate truth in and of itself - it has some truths and some lies. I believe it is distorted. 3.Do you believe the Bible is error free and is always harmonious? This q's is answered by q.2.

4.Why do you believe these things? Because I can, because I want to, because they serve me and I am happier and healthier for it, physically and emotionally.

15

think you've guessed someone's identity?

by J-ex-W in

jw
friends

i'm just curious.

i wonder how many readers out there think the stuff they've read sound so much like someone they know that they're going, ohmigawd!!

or if circumstances described seem like big fat give-aways.

zensim

Truthseeker: I am the same. Wanting to establish contact here with someone I may possibly know, but at the same time hesitant to give out too much personal info in case a lurker gets it out there to my family and close friends still jw's and jeopardises my relationship with them.

8

Angelic DNA

by Woodsman in

in considering the wts beliefs about the angels who came down and had sex with women, producing offspring i began to wonder.

this would mean that angels have the abilility to create a human life without god's help.

both by creating a human body and taking possesion of it and by then using that body to create offspring.. this whole business of materializing is suspicious.

zensim

Scientists and geneticists are now recognising that what they used to term 'junk DNA' is not really junk. Basically, they just didn't know what it did. Human potential extends far beyond our reality and what we currently think is possible. As we grow more and more, strands of dna open up to humankind and we are literally evolving.

One example, even though a lot of people are sceptical of 'psychics' for instance (and I am not going to get into a debate about charlatans and ego power trippers), science is beginning to understand the phenomena of intuition and communication on different energy levels and have been able to prove it in a logical way. As science begins to understand it and it becomes logical, it becomes more normal, then becomes accepted (that is, not feared because it is no longer 'unknown') and then becomes commonplace. Imagine 50 years ago someone (waaaaay ahead of their time) trying to explain the concept of the internet to everyone back then - they would have been labelled as crazy or demonic! Reality is first created by the imagination and then made manifest in the physical.

An excellent example of how consciousness works is of Roger Bannister, the first person to run the 100 mile in under 4 mins. Basically, breakthroughs happen all the time. All it needs is one or two people to believe that something is possible when everyone else says it is impossible, and as soon as they prove it, it becomes possible for everyone. This happens everyday all the time and our lives as we know it in 2007 are testatment to this fact (technology is a great example of this).

I believe in different dimensions and I think themes of visitations from the spirit realm (angels, aliens, call them what you will, same thoughts, different time) are so commonplace, in the bible and everywhere else, that there is truth to them. We just don't have the understanding yet of precisely what it is, and if we don't understand it we try and come up with a logical 'story' so that we can feel comfortable with not knowing.

It is possible for certain combinations of dna strands to create a hybrid - that is, an opening in the dna strands that creates greater potential than is normally standard human possibility (or so we think). It is no different to having an autistic child who is an idiot savant. So it is not unlikely that there were once a breed of people - the Nephilim - that had super strength due to some anomaly in that particular combination of dna. Whether it was as the bible relates it is not known. I tend to think that the Nephilim were real, but given the very limited intellectual and scientific knowledge of the day, the only way they could make sense of such an anomaly was to fit it in with their spiritual belief system of the day.

40

Anathema of Science and Religion

by LittleToe in

just a short "starter for ten" question:.

have you noticed how so many exjws are polarised as to their views of particularly science and religion?

some seem to take the time to get informed, and others are content to hold onto previous [mis]conceptions (most likely coloured by the wts) about science and religion being evil and/or corrupt.

zensim

I am so enjoying this discussion, it is so fascinating. Interesting though that this is a philisophical discussion and yet philosophy, one of the other mainstays of humanity, is being left out of this debate?

LT: I do think a lot of it has to do with intellectual laziness. I also appreciate the need for those who don't get lost in the intellectualism and are able to keep things (or get things back to) the simple important things in life. I tend to intellectualise things but thank goodness I am married to someone who isn't and keeps me grounded. I think there is a place for both.

Another point reminded to me by being back on this forum (this forum or any other), is that a lot of misunderstanding comes in the limited nature of posting via the written word. We literally can't explain ourselves as expansively as we would each like to, so often misunderstandings arise from the limited nature of communication. Also our individual language skills. I am consciously working on this at the moment - another aspect of my growing self-awareness. For instance yesterday when I said to you "...not entirely true..." I realised as soon as I posted it that it was a negative way of expressing myself. Because I completely agreed with what you said and rather could have said "... in addition..." or "... to expand on what you said..." or "... another facet...". This is a language skill (and I am still trying to limit my overuse of words: 'should', 'but', 'yet', 'however') and it is also related to our emotional intelligence, how willing are we to put forward our opinion for opinion's sake as opposed to working with another human being so both our thinkings our expanded?

For my part, I have an admittedly very limited knowledge of quantum physics, yet it fascinates me and I love reading stuff on it from time to time (maybe put me in the ballpark of "What the bleep you know" was not a new revelation to me when it came out). And I wonder if I am like a lot of people here who are not intellectually lazy yet am also hesitant to wade into a debate I really may know nothing about. I fall into the category of thinking "The more I know the more I realise how much I don't know". For instance, from what I have read, a lot of physicists nowdays are starting to find a lot of flaws in Einstein's work. Yet so much of science today is premised on Einstein's work. The scientific community faces the very same complex difficulties that each of us face leaving a religion - what parts do we keep and what do we leave?

I still don't have an answer. I guess that is why I tend to focus on the attitude or intention behind any endeavour or opinion.

BTW, I have found the personal, human and intimate connection of satsang to be a wonderful way of getting similar and very powerful benefits to that which we are each trying to get here on the net. There is much to be gained through exposing ourselves, opening up, being vulnerable and being amongst unconditionally loving individuals.

Zensim

57

Its Time To Post!

by lurker in

jw
friends

hello all: i have been lurking around this site for over two years.

due to a recent post of someone claiming to be an elder (which has been removed) i have been motivated to post.

i have been around this site for well over two years and have read most of your posts carefully.

zensim

Welcome Lurker - I lurked a year or so back and have only just started posting recently.

I reckon it sometimes takes just as much courage to stay (for loved ones) as it does to leave. We all go through similar thoughts and feelings, just in different contexts.

Welcome again.

40

Anathema of Science and Religion

by LittleToe in

just a short "starter for ten" question:.

have you noticed how so many exjws are polarised as to their views of particularly science and religion?

some seem to take the time to get informed, and others are content to hold onto previous [mis]conceptions (most likely coloured by the wts) about science and religion being evil and/or corrupt.

zensim

I still maintain that in an environment such as this the indifferent will rarely post.

Little Toe: that is not entirely true. I didn't weigh in on the global warming debate because I acknowledge that I know very little about it. I feel very passionately that something must be done - but I wouldn't have the faintest where to start (I did tend to agree with Zagor's comments tho). So whilst that may be true for some, I think a lot of what you term "indifference" may be just the wise realising that they don't have something constructive to really add in addition to what has already been said much better by others.

I got serious- and had fun - with the homeopathy debate because I have explored both the science and hope/faith aspect of that field. It is a field I am closely aligned with (natural health) and I appreciate both sides. For me it is not one side has all the answers but rather how they can work together and enhance each other.

The human race is far more aware of its origins and its blindness. Religion came into being as an explanation to phenomena that people could not understand. Now that science has explained many of life’s mysteries and helped us to become more enlightened, we realise that we are collectively responsible for the world we live in.

Trevor I couldn't agree with this more. I think human consciousness is much more aware now that there is a place for everything and that spirituality - not religion - has a place for those yet to be understood mysteries in life. And I assume that as long as human's don't have the answer for everything, spirituality will have its natural place. And really, no one likes the thought of a place devoid of the mystery that spices up life. I for one used to sometimes get scared of the whole paradise new system concept because I was scared it would be boring! I think I still do - balance is a fine line to tread, between complacency and contentment. I just want to keep growing, I think the only thing I have control over is whether I do that in a healthy or unhealthy way, whether I enjoy the process or resent it.

40

Anathema of Science and Religion

by LittleToe in

just a short "starter for ten" question:.

have you noticed how so many exjws are polarised as to their views of particularly science and religion?

some seem to take the time to get informed, and others are content to hold onto previous [mis]conceptions (most likely coloured by the wts) about science and religion being evil and/or corrupt.

zensim

Great discussion Little Toe - thanks.

I was just reading the following last night and it goes to some attempt to explain where I am currently at (and I say currently, because basically I take the stance that I know what I know in this moment and I am completely prepared that what I know will not serve me in the next moment):

"As healing is opposed to suffering, so it is central to our pursuit of happiness. All religion, philosophy and science are human inventions and a product of this perennial search".

By way of my thinking and feeling, I take the view that everything is born of an unfathomable source (call it god, Jehovah, the universe - I don't care) and so there is no right or wrong. How can you say science is wrong if we were created/evolved with brains to think and explore? And how can you say emotions are wrong (and religion is largely emotionally based) if we all have emotions? Some people tend to get confused especially with the emotions trust, hope and blind faith (denial).

Most people are very very uncomfortable with not knowing. So all their "I'm right, you're wrong" is really just the fear of the unkown. That void can be very scary. I think the more we become comfortable with uncomfortable feelings, the easier it becomes. For some, coming out of the JW's - or any other strong belief system (family, culture, society etc) - either gets them used to the feeling of disintegration and letting go or sends them deeper into wanting to feel safe by "knowing", so often they just replace one strong belief system with an opposing belief system.

I do agree though that the JW's seem to have a special talent for doing it with both science and religion. Then again, I think we are all guilty of picking and choosing what suits us. However, I have come to the conclusion this is not a bad thing, being true to yourself is finding what serves you best. What is unhealthy is thinking that what serves you is the only answer for everyone else and/or holding onto something with pig-headed attachment once something no longer healthily serves you. What is truth today may not be a truth tomorrow. Holding it out as truth because your ego and pride is too hard to swallow makes it a lie - I don't care how much of a truth it originally was.

It is not easy to be balanced and find harmony - each and every one of us are complex individuals. And there are billions of us all trying to find ourselves and each other!

I am much more interested in understanding how the physical, mental and emotional all work in harmony. Most people tend to focus just on one or two aspects at any given time - some throughout their whole life.

I can have strong opinions and can also call someone an idiot or moronic (but generally it is just done in jest - which others may not appreciate). I tend to look at the individual and see whether or not they are living from a healthy place, mentally, emotionally and physically. And I take the person before me, in that moment. If someone before me is in an unhealthy place that doesn't bother me - I still go there myself (though not nearly as often). What bothers me is if they have taken up residence in that unhealthy place and are now inflicting that unhealthy behaviour on others. There is a vast difference. Basically I don't care what someone believes, it is not hard to find balanced scientists who are more happy and productive than a lot of religionists. And it is not hard to find a lot of spiritual people who are more happy and healthy than a lot of tech heads.

I am just enjoying the journey and the freedom to learn what I want, from whom I want and the freedom to pick and choose what I want to believe. I don't really dismiss much, I tend to look at something and if I don't believe it - I just put it on the shelf. I may re-visit it another time and decide now it does serve me - or I may never look at it again.

126

Homeopathy popular in Jehovah's Witnesses ?

by Tigerman in

is homeopathy ( the treatment of a disease using, in small doses, drugs that produce symtoms like those of the disease so that one's natural immune system can fight off the disease ) popular among active jw's ?

my son who was raised as a jw has a large ( adult male palm size ) fatty growth on his back.

his jw mother is treating him with homeopathy, as is a so called doctor.

zensim

I am starting to see a pattern developing on a lot of these threads - here the one is "JW's are really into alternative medicine" as opposed to "JW's are not into alternative medicine". Personally, my experience was like tall penguin and I left because I was into alternative medicine/ideas and that was considered "demonic".

I think the basic guideline is that the WTS will take whatever stand they like, on both sides of the fence, use contradictory logic and apply it to anything they don't understand! So when it suits them - encourage the sheep to seek out alternative remedies because (and again I agree with tall penguin on this one), it is safer than them getting a real diagnosis as to their mental and emotional health. But if something is too alternative (in other words, "We don't understand how it works") it is steeped in demonism. Everyone's reply here is based on their own personal experience depending on which mind set of the day they were caught in - but don't worry, the WTS has all bases more than covered, they have an answer for everything - because EVERYTHING is evil and the work of Satan!

This really worried me when they would use science to back up their interpretation of the bible but then, when the established science didn't support them they would say it was "the foolishness of man's thinking".

4

Terry Irwin given death video

by zensim in

i find it encouraging to see that justice was chosen in this case, rather than the normal red tape and/or rules.. .

terri given footage of irwin's deaththursday jan 4 00:14 aedtsteve irwin's wife terri has been given footage of her husband's death after queensland authorities broke with protocol to ensure it did not get into the wrong hands.. copies of the film, which shows irwin being stabbed in the heart by a stingray, have been destroyed, queensland state coroner michael barnes said.. he said footage was normally held in perpetuity but the destruction of the copies would prevent them being sold on the black market, news limited newspapers report.. the coronial investigation is almost complete and the footage was handed to terri irwin just before christmas, mr barnes said.. .

"when the final police investigation report is received the coroner will, in consultation with ms irwin, determine whether an inquest is necessary," mr barnes said.he said police had told him unscrupulous operators would be willing to pay up to $1 million for the footage.. under usual coronial investigation protocols, a film or audio evidence is handed back to the owners and a copy made for the state to be held in perpetuity.. "i'm not sure whether we will be doing that in this case because of the risk it poses," mr barnes said.. he said police had a responsibility to ensure the footage was not leaked.. the findings of the coronial investigation into irwin's death are expected to be made public within weeks.. .

zensim

I find it encouraging to see that justice was chosen in this case, rather than the normal red tape and/or rules.

Terri given footage of Irwin's death

Thursday Jan 4 00:14 AEDT

Steve Irwin's wife Terri has been given footage of her husband's death after Queensland authorities broke with protocol to ensure it did not get into the wrong hands.

Copies of the film, which shows Irwin being stabbed in the heart by a stingray, have been destroyed, Queensland State Coroner Michael Barnes said.

He said footage was normally held in perpetuity but the destruction of the copies would prevent them being sold on the black market, News Limited newspapers report.

The coronial investigation is almost complete and the footage was handed to Terri Irwin just before Christmas, Mr Barnes said.

"When the final police investigation report is received the coroner will, in consultation with Ms Irwin, determine whether an inquest is necessary," Mr Barnes said.

He said police had told him unscrupulous operators would be willing to pay up to $1 million for the footage.

Under usual coronial investigation protocols, a film or audio evidence is handed back to the owners and a copy made for the state to be held in perpetuity.

"I'm not sure whether we will be doing that in this case because of the risk it poses," Mr Barnes said.

He said police had a responsibility to ensure the footage was not leaked.

The findings of the coronial investigation into Irwin's death are expected to be made public within weeks.

29

Where are you in your recovery process?

by Nicolas in

hi everyone and happy new year.

it's been a long time since i posted here, i've been lurking for a while too but now i would like to share my experience.

i would also like to hear your experience.

zensim

AllalongWatch - congratulations on your pregnancy! That's wonderful news for you and your wife.

We all need hope and belief - in something (even if it is the belief that there is no god and there is only ourselves). And it seems like your wife is spiritually minded and has a belief in god - it is not at all unusual for people when they have children to question their faith more. I did, and the reverse happened, it took me away from the witnesses. So don't assume this is a bad thing.

However, it depends on her emotional state. Obviously I don't know your wife, you or the ins and outs. But I am going to offer my suggestions here and see how they feel for you.

Pregnancy is an emotional time anyway for all the good expected reasons and for all the hormonal reasons - ha ha (for me it was like having pmt for 9 months!). From what you have said and reading between the lines, in the past you have taken the intellectual dissuading approach and it seemed to work, until now. For this to come up again at this time I would appeal to the emotions and heart.

Just ask her lots of questions. Don't try and argue with her (tho don't throw logic out the window either). But rather ask her why she has started thinking about all of this now? There could be some much deeper emotions going on that are driving this. Is there fear about having a child (will she be a good mother? does she worry about creating a safe space in a 'bad world'? finances? security? birth? etc etc). You asked why the org is so insidious and one of the reasons is because it plays on people's fears. Fear pretty much drives most people (to various degrees) - so see if you can find out what she is really worried about. If you try and take away what she is trying to latch on to it will just make her feel more insecure.

Then talk positively about the type of environment (neutral) that you want to create for your child as a family. What kind of values do you want to instil? What kinds of principles, what is important to each of you, what can you both bring to the family (eg what are each of your strong points/gifts and how do you balance each other out?). Try and talk about a lot of positive aspects, it is important that she feels that these are within her and she is able to provide them for her child. The org plays on the 'helpless without us' aspect, help her see that she is more than capable of finding these answers from within, from you and from various sources.

You can do all this without even mentioning the witnesses - it doesn't need to be about them really at all. This is a beautiful time for you and your wife - enjoy!