Posts by zensim

14

John Safran Does The JW's (Prince Satire)

by brinjen in

i had to hunt high and low for this video, finally found it.

it's from his 2001 'music jamboree' series... hilarious!

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=hnfi0vu9vyg.

zensim

Oh god that was funny - my stomach still hurts - rofl.

86

On the sound use of mental suicide.

by Narkissos in

jw
friends

this topic is meant as a follow-up of my recent conversation with r. crusoe on different threads.. it seems to me that the current popularisation of eckhart tolle's philosophy, resurrecting what i think is the very core of age-old mystical traditions (to put it shortly: death of the culturally constructed "self"), without the collective mythological, institutional and social settings for such an experience, is potentially very liberating but also very dangerous.. i am sensitive to that because i went through a similar experience when i left jws -- i felt both its empowering and destructive force, and, although i certainly don't claim to have dealt with it optimally (is that an adverb?

), i'm hoping that experience, good or bad, may benefit others, to an extent.

and i'm sure that i'm not alone in that case.. so i'd like this thread to be primarily supportive, even though that may include some theoretical and practical criticism.. .

zensim

Brilliant thread! And I don't mean this just on a mind level - I believe this is one of the most fundamental questions facing humanity currently.

Sorry my response below is so long - I am just catching up.

Until this week, I hadn't visited this forum for almost a year. I must confess Nark, even though I always found your insights thought provoking and interesting, there was always an element of mind fuck with them.

Now ... I don't know if it is reflective of my own growth, or a gradual softening in your own methodology (prob both), but I find such resonance with everything you have said - an understanding and knowing that comes not only from just experience or learnt knowledge - but time to digest and integrate this experience and knowledge. My guess (and at best it is that, though I trust that these things are often born from within a deeper place) is that, in starting to reveal your own experiences (eg on your profile) there is a deepening happening where you are embodying all knowing and taking no ownership or placing no ownership on others.

From my perception, there is a fresh element of kindness running through your words. This whole thread is testament to this because I completely understand where you are coming from in the deepest moral sense.

I have been watching my sister in these past few months go into the sheer terror of mental suicide and it is such a difficult thing to watch (yes, she is still a JW). I try telling my family I understand what she is going through, I too have experienced it but (a) I can see they don't quite think I have, because my experience was private and hers is 'dramatic' and (b) that is cold comfort to most of them because their greatest fear is that - if she survives this experience intact - she will of course "end up like" me :) (lol, a possibility I find immenseley amusing).

The thing about kindness is - there is the objective kindness of desiring individual liberation - not only themselves, but for collective consciousness sake. Then there is the personal empathy and compassion for the journey you know they will take through the abyss. As one of my mentor's describes: "This is not for the faint hearted". Therein lies the rub, we talk about this at the level of the mind because it feels like it is happening at this level, yet my experience is that there is no separation of the experience between mind and emotion. Both need to be supported.

Above and beyond, we question ourselves, whether this is a necessary path for everyone to take - even if our instinct is that it will eventually be met by every human in their lifestream.

I stick to the drama paradigm: you can't escape playing a role, but you can become conscious that you are playing a role. At best that might make you less dogmatic, not more, as you learn to laugh at the play while playing...

I often wonder whether it is necessary to be doing this consciously or enough to be doing this instinctively and whether I can even tell the difference when observing others.

It was not "discussion" in the sense of arguing with a worthy partner. It was rather a sense of mutual trust and harmony, allowing each of us to follow on the thought of the other, knowing we would meet again at the next step. It was extraordinarily light.

This is all I want now and I endeavour to meet others in this way. I know the path I have taken to this realisation. Whilst obviously this is the path I advocate - I am not interested in whether it is ultimately right or wrong or how others perceive it. I only want to meet others in the above place of truth and I really don't care how you got there, because the wonderful thing about being in this place of flowing truth is that your path was indeed different to mine. It is not a 'meeting in the middle' only (this goes back to our discussions on duality and balance), rather it is a continual merging and separation which allows for growth, freshness and vitality.

In a sense, once you get past the mystical trappings (some never do, blessed are them!), you realise that you have fallen in love with death itself (or, at least, with "something" one of whose many names is death).

Interesting - because for me it was the experience of realising I had fallen in love with life itself :)

I find myself agreeing that I would not recommend this to anyone - yet by my very actions I find that I am. The ego still fears and even if I have learnt to live with that fear in myself, I certainly still fear for others (eg my analogy of the coin toss in other thread). The impulse within me to keep growing, to keep evolving, propels me to live in a way that will affect those I meet - such is the dynamic of life. All I can learn to do is to be softer, more tender and patient with others - creating an embrace that hopefully will support them through this time when it visits. And if it doesn't, I try to let go any need on my part that desires it to happen for my benefit.

Why is anything not understood defined as 'mystical'?

Re your comment on born again. I was just pondering the concept of reincarnation yesterday and considering how I have 'reincarnated' since leaving the JWs. On most levels my life resembles nothing like my previous life - yet there is an essential nature within that still feels unchanged. This seems to neither come nor go - I have just become more attuned to it and my ability to 'be' this is what has changed, to be conscious of it. Yet I am this and always have been.

You speak of the 'aftermath' of such emerging experiences. It may not come as any surprise that I am a doula (birth support person, for those wondering) in secular life, and as such I see it encumbent on those who have come through such experiences - who have arrived at knowing themselves in this wholeness, to be there to assist others in making the transition. All the while trusting in the implicit life force that knows how to do this quite naturally without us needing to do a thing!

I have got to the point where - if the person is asking the q's they are somewhat ready on a level. The wise person will - without limiting - assess their 'need to know' and speak both to this and to the innate knowing that is beyond. Sometimes it is just as simple as not saying anything and just listening, other times it is sharing through stories, teachings, words or actions. By being that which you know they already are, you allow room for that stillness within them to give rise to truth - until they have gone through the transfiguration and learnt the life skill of being able to do this for themselves.

R.Crusoe:

I see society as Tolle does and am amazed I only learned of him in the past two weeks!
Maybe if I had earlier I could have lost the pain of much inner conflict which gave rise to some of what I have written - both poetic and otherwise!

Would you see society as Tolle does if you hadn't experienced the pain of inner conflict? Btw, I have never been called to read any of Tolle's works and the video you first posted is the first time I have heard him speak. Like your experience with Tolle, I am a new fan of Ken Wilbur and am grateful to have someone else's broader perspective of my experience. Sometimes the information appears to come after the experience, sometimes the experience appears to come after the information. In reality there is no beginning or end - we just tend to put up sign posts retrospectively for poignant or profound moments. My feeling is that I am usually just catching up with that which I already knew :)

I try and teach my children that they already know everything - they are only here to remember that they know.

And it seems to encourage ignorance and loveless reaction in some respects to loved ones who may be having a tough time of life and what it deals to them. If you encourage complete 'passive peaceful indifference' within close family frameworks, life all too soon can become superficial, artificial and detached on a permanent basis.

It looks like this externally, hence the resistance by most (and the labelling). In reality it feels and is quite different through direct realisation. The words sound the same but the living of them is a huge paradigm shift.

You ask some very important questions which are worthy of being with.

I personally know it to be used oftentimes in the most insidiously controlling ways - silence like a cancer grows!!
Using silence to seemingly demand conformity can become a very destructive and dangerous practise.
I just wonder about any systems which advocate silence as a caring response = not because of how well intended they are but because of how in reality they get applied! A speechless action is ripe for misinterpretation! I do not recommend it as standard practise!

This comes back to intention, trust and intuition (yours and theirs). If it feels like control - use it as an opportunity to explore that truth within you.

Nvrgnbk:

We're all screwed up.
Some more than others.
Let's all try not to be so screwed up.
But if you suffer due to your being screwed up or someone else being screwed up, that's good.
It's precisely that suffering that will make you aware of just how screwed up it all is.
With that awareness, things might get just a little less screwed up.

Love this - the great 'cosmic joke'! :) Why can't we all just play together nicely?

47

Calling all atheists, agnostics, believers, and seekers! A must hear.....

by journey-on in

jw
friends

http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/229.

the above website was posted by zensim on the thread about indigo children.

the site has nothing to do.

zensim

Reactive is not bad in my book, life would be quite stultifying if we were to analyse every action, feeling, idea etc :) I am more a 'fruits of action' type person and increasingly interested in alchemy.

Sounds like you have found your own I AM'ness My 'I AM' is the ocean

(PS I am honoured by your compliment)

47

Calling all atheists, agnostics, believers, and seekers! A must hear.....

by journey-on in

jw
friends

http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/229.

the above website was posted by zensim on the thread about indigo children.

the site has nothing to do.

zensim

Nark:

Whoever "preaches" a panacea ("left brain," "right brain," of even "balance" for all) is just playing his/her own part in the overall drama, which keeps advancing at its own pace.

Absolutely - I completely agree that it is at a collective level - and thank god otherwise the world would be a very boring place :) However, I also believe that one has to come to a certain level of balance internally to welcome all these vast differences. How many are consciously aware in the moment that they are taking up either a dual position or a merging position - and that is ok, but it is not a place to land? My awareness is that there is a vast difference between moving freely in duality (being duality) and reacting in duality. The former is what I refer to as balance - all the time fully conscious that, in taking up this perception, I myself am part of this collective drama ;)

I found immense delight in your comment:

Wait: who's speaking? "Right brain" or "left brain" posturing as "right brain"?

... though in the past I would have been blowing a head gasket trying to figure that one out - lol.

I would like to point out however, that even though you purport not to take up this dualism, I have noticed that in all your threads you have ascribed 'happy/blessed' feelings to 'right brain' and 'jaded/sinners' qualities to 'left brain'. Personally, I love the endless fascination and joy I receive from my 'left brain'. I am also very experienced now, that it is extremely important for my sanity (and those around me) to take time out to be still, be in nature, be present to my emotions, to come back into my body's senses (so many of us live in our heads) and use my imagination. My left brain doesn't stop working whilst I do those things, but it is certainly given a chance to rest from dominance.

BTS:

I have just recently discovered Teilhard and have loved what I have read so far. For those who are also interested, I have found much fascination in this magazine (which I have to order from OS): http://www.wie.org/

Anti-Christ:

I haven't read Nark's Suicide thread so I will respond just from what is here for me now. Mental problems run in my family also. I certainly believe these are complex issues and, as such, am wary of 'feel good/one size fits all' solutions. I do believe everything you have described is 'normal' - by degrees :) This:

Sometimes in a conversation I start to feel weird and my vision starts to go wonky, everything around me goes from big to small very fast and I know what every body is going to say, trust me it's a uncomfortable feeling.

... I have experienced similar (and still experience occasionally, except that I have grown comfortable with feeling uncomfortable) and I completely understand.

Your first experience is a lack of integration. This is what I mean by 'degrees'. A lot of experiences discussed here by others (including the Jill BT experience) are quite natural and well within the scope of 'normal'. Normal is relative though, depending on how evolved the consciousness of those around you, not to mention how evolved collective consciousness is. And then there is the matter of what provokes these experiences as to whether they fall into the category of healthy or unhealthy.

Sorry, I find it hard to do this justice because it is a very complex matter. Even something as simple as saying Jill BT's experience was caused by a stroke, can be interpeted differently by people as being provoked by a healthy or unhealthy body response. Each experience, in each moment, even if it is seemingly created 'unhealthily' - can be transformed into something healthy. I am very cautious in saying this though because I think this is where a lot of people get very angry with any New Age type speak which puts a positive spin on everything.

Each experience can be like a throw of the coin. So in working with people, I understand that their situation is to be taken very seriously (especially when it comes to mental issues). Sometimes you just don't know which way the coin is going to land. For the most part though, you can do a lot in your power to influence the coin to land positively. I would recommend seeing a professional. I am happy for you to pm me if you would like assistance in knowing how to find the right kind of professional (because that in itself can be a minefield).

13

Whew, Long time since I ve been here. Hello everyone!

by xjwms in

jw
friends

way too many things going on right now.. it has been so long since i have been here, just thought i'd pop in to say hello, to all you fine folks.. april has just been the busiest time time for me.

.

whats new at j.w.d ???.

zensim

Welcome back. I too haven't been here in the longest time. Just popped in to check out if it was true about book study and - as usual, lol - got enticed into posting!

35

Indigo Children

by feenx in

jw
friends

what you think, what do you know, how do you feel about indigo children?

zensim

FlyingHighNow:

Absolutely related to anxiety if this 'dream like' state feels foggy and distant and unclear. One way very sensitive people deal with the sensory overwhelm of daily life in this modern age is to retreat behind this fogginess, as it dulls the edges and makes functioning a little easier. It is much like smearing vaseline on the camera lens to create a soft focus.

However, it is not a great way to deal with reality (though certainly preferable to avoiding reality altogether by putting on rose-coloured glasses or going off into delusion, avoidance, fantasy, paranoia, drugs or other numerous ways people escape). It means that we also then don't feel the potency of all the beautiful things that sustain us - we are numbed out to life.

One of my favourite expressions is "There's a fine line between pleasure and pain" :) I have learnt that in relaxing, in slowing down and opening, often what feels too intense or painful is actually exquisite if I slowly feel it. It is re-learning how to be as children are, such as when fear can just as easily be tranlated as excitement. Yes, you will feel tender, vulnerable and exposed at first and that can be quite terrifying (no protection). Over time however the tenderness changes from feeling like someone (life) is touching a raw, open wound and is just too overwhelming to process - and starts to feel like the tenderness of touching a rose petal or the skin of a newborn. Then you are able to look around and take everything in.

For me it still feels like a dream because everything is in such startling clarity that it feels almost surreal.

47

Calling all atheists, agnostics, believers, and seekers! A must hear.....

by journey-on in

jw
friends

http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/229.

the above website was posted by zensim on the thread about indigo children.

the site has nothing to do.

zensim

Whilst Narkissos points to a typical trap that many fall into - that of taking sides or pitting one side against another - I think the whole point Jill Bolte Taylor makes is our WHOLE brain is brilliantly capable of accessing all states - as so clearly demonstrated by her intellectual analysis of a transendental experience (the stroke that caused it is just one of countless ways to manifest the experience - what is important is her lucidity throughout the experience). For the sake of expedience we tend to refer to left brain or right brain, but I don't think for a second Jill BT is unconscious of the intricate complexities and synchronistic workings of the brain and the rest of our physiology.

For the sake of ease, let's call it left brain and right brain and not get caught up in whether one is 'better' than the other. I believe we can recognise that predominantly most of us reside in the logical, rational and 'left brain' aspects whilst all the time yearning for the symbiotic feeling of classic right brain experiences - love, oneness, orgasm, bliss, acceptance, non-attachment, expansiveness and surrender.

My take on it is that we are born predominantly residing in right brained. Babies feel at one with everything, feel no separation from mother. Children are highly sensitive and easily feel the emotions and energies of others. As we grow older the urge is to develop a separate identity and so begins our left brain development, finding sense and meaning of the world so we can define ourselves.

There is no right or wrong here. I just believe along the way we, as adults, tend to so strongly identify with our rational, separate aspect that we forget we have this other part of us that needs freedom and true expression. The right brain becomes 'wrong' (or 'right' depending on your spiritual views) and unconscious. So right brain experiences are marginilised and/or categorised - art, creativity, insanity, delusion, enlightenment, spirituality, fantasy, not 'real', real etc etc. All the while, most people are unconsciously (and not necessarily healthily) driven to satisfy the right brain through love, food, sex, religion, art and so on. We all satisfy the right brain healthily and unhealthily.

People who are predominantly and naturally more attuned to right brain actually have the hardest time fitting into society. At the furthest end of the spectrum, those who are so right brained have probably been the great spiritual 'masters' through mankind's history. Yet, if after viewing Jill BT's talk, you re-examine some of the teachings of these spiritual beings, you may reframe what they are saying when they say we are all 'this' - it is possible for each and every one of us. It is not outside us, it is inside us. As Awakened07 says, it is as simple as a biological brain function. How different human history might be if these 'masters' experience was given a different context, was understood more in the light of what Jill BT describes? I like to imagine that the concept of religion - the striving after these experiences - would be obsolete.

It is a second reality - because the brain is processing the same data in a powerfully different way. How amusing however that the left brain interpretation has claimed 'reality' as its own. I also wonder at the pureness of the data we are given to interpet considering that most of the data is a product of unconscious longing and then the left brain trying to make sense - 'reality' - of it :)

To me, realising the possibility that I have choice in each moment and that I can consciously choose right brained interpretation (rather than reacting from unconscious longing) means I can flow between each states. It is not choosing one over another - it is the ability to be so present and aware, I can see the big picture by approaching everything from both the left brain and right brain, choosing appropriate action. Knowing what might be the appropriate answer/response in one moment might be actually the wrong response in the next similar moment.

This is non-duality.

To realise non-duality one must be willing to explore both the known and the unknown (or unknowable) - to sit in the discomfort of not knowing and to feel the true power of knowing.

These states are very reproducible (and without drugs!) but are not meant to be turned on or off like a switch. It is a state of being where there is natural energy flow between everything.

I too believe humans are evolving.

I originally posted the link under Indigo Children because I was responding to Terry's heartfelt post on what it was like having a child with Asbergers. Whilst recognising the very real daily frustrations of living with someone like that (and allow room also for the frequent joys), I also feel it is important to learn from the awesome manifestation of someone's extreme experience of life and see how this can enhance our own understanding and way of being. Not to make their experience wrong, to try and make them 'fit' our reality, but to use it as a point of self-inquiry where I might recognise and evolve my own perception.

92

There is no such thing as Agnosticism. Agnostics do not exist!

by nicolaou in

many here seem to believe that the position of agnosticism is somehow more reasonable than theism or atheism.

nonsense!

it is a misconception to believe that belief or non-belief in the existence of god/s are the two extremes which glare at each other over the fence of agnosticism.

zensim

I think, by the nature of most humans, labels tend to be limiting by definition.

What we have seen in this thread is that, in reality, labels are anything but limiting. There is such a vast array of definitions and interpretations of each word (and they are just a 'word') - atheist, theist and agnostic. At the end of the day it is not the word or label we choose to identify with - it is the intention and stance we take within that label.

Each word can and does encompass within it the ability to be open and embracing - or close minded and stubborn. The irony is, that in the very need to define each term, all that has been demonstrated is the indefinable essence of each word - as it shifts and grows to reflect not only current consciousness, but expanding consciousness.

35

Indigo Children

by feenx in

jw
friends

what you think, what do you know, how do you feel about indigo children?

zensim

Isn't the talk amazing? I believe everyone should see it!

For me it actually helped me explain to my still-Witness family members what I am interested in and demystify the whole 'spiritual mystic' experience. I see it as a normal human function that can be cultivated. Just because in the past it was only mystics, great 'teachers', gurus, Christ, Buddha ("whatever") that spontaneously accessed this state makes it no less possible for us and completely re-frames the message they were imparting. On the other hand, it also mitigates the effect of religion because it reduces the 'enlightened' state to a biological process.

Thank you Fadeout - that was a beautiful article.

Re persons with Asbergers and Autism. I have a family member with asbergers, a friend with asbergers and have worked with clients with asbergers. I know this is a very complex way of being, with so many theories and 'solutions'. In my experience, these people have absolutely beautiful spirits. At the very extreme end of the spectrum they are so shut down it is quite distressing for family members. But for those who are reasonably functional (such as the guy in the article) - if you have no expectations of what is 'normal' and you are just with them and open - they radiate so much love, such an innocence and wonder - that they can have a profound effect on the way you view their 'disability'. Even writing this I feel my heart welling up and tears in my eyes. I can't explain it, but it is a similar feeling of the total love and awe you feel looking at your newborn. There is an unadulterated purity about them in the way they are so literal, which I personally find it a beautiful magnificent variation of humanness.

Personally, I feel that in some way they are like canary in the mineshafts. And also a very profound example of the potential in all of us. We can learn so much from them and, in no way downplaying the reality of what it is like for families of autistic children, I do believe that they are part of human evolution. Whether they are a result of the negative aspects of our (de-)evolution or an anomoly in our growth to bigger and better things is yet to be determined. Preferably I prefer the latter because I believe our hope as a human species is in slowing down and appreciating their differences rather than viewing them as 'wrong' and trying to make them fit into our distorted world.

Theories like Indigo Children probably do more harm than good (imho) if one takes up that as their only belief system and, like Terry said, use it to avoid reality. At the same time, I believe in re-framing the context in which we see these children and appreciating their gifts - whilst dealing with the reality of bridging our worlds. I think we could do a bit more with the brutal honesty of those with asbergers - they are actually remarkably astute and, if you are not being totally truthful with yourself, their comments can be uncomfortable. Because, if we admit it, we are all still children - we still think the same things in our heads (they just say them out loud). We have just learnt to cloak it in remnant Victorian 'manners' and call ourselves functional adults :)

35

Indigo Children

by feenx in

jw
friends

what you think, what do you know, how do you feel about indigo children?

zensim

Funnily enough, the concept of Indigo Children was very instrumental in aiding me leaving the dubs all those years back.

I came across an ad for the movie and, just from that little blurb, I immediately thought "That is me" and then in the next moment "that is my children". That was then :)

I learned a lot from the concept and, even though I don't subscribe to it anymore (was only deeply interested in it for about a year) I feel that it was so outside the realm of what I believed as a witness, and introduced me to many trains of thought that dubs would consider 'demonic', that it really helped open my mind to learning from everything and anything. I believe there is an element of truth in most things.

It really helped me to understand that everyone has different filters for how they see the world and, for some people, those filters are quite different and very literal - as evidenced by many of the people on this thread who have now shared in openness their experiences with colour, taste etc.

It was also through Indigo children concept that I realised how sensitive children are and gained a much deeper understanding of the dynamics of energy. I also discovered that my eldest daughter sees colours around others according to their emotions. I don't see this by any means. However, it has been a useful understanding for me in helping her distinguish between her own emotions and others - in the past she was prone to constant stomach aches from internalising other people's 'stuff'.

Like everything though, and as Terry so rationally pointed out, taking up residence in any belief system such as this is a great avoidance strategy for facing reality. After experiencing life as a witness and the whole "we are the chosen people" never sitting well with me, I am very sceptical of anything that smacks of separation. To me Indigo children parents (and I have met quite a few) are the New Age version of parents who put their children in talent/beauty pageants!

To FlyingHighNow:

"And I always feel like I am dreaming."

Yep, that's how I feel also. Always have ... and I used to feel that there was something wrong with me. In learning to become more present to life, to accept and welcome all that is, that feeling has grown stronger. In realising this illusory thing we call 'life' I have actually become integrated and now walk consciously through the dream. There is a lucidness here which is so startling in its clarity, encompassing both the dream and the real.