Posts by Ingenuous

15

When am I an apostate?

by Lilycurly in

jw
friends

my father talked to an elder yesterday, told him i was reading crisis of conscience, other apostate material and talking apostate with my mother.... the verdict: i am not consider an apostate, according to this elder.. now i'm confused...i thought just being here made me one, but the elder says i need to be talking badly about the society to others jws to be one.

does that even make sense?

anyone has any written references from publications or others that clearly says that there are other motives then trying to convert other jws?

Ingenuous

According to my Dad, stating fact is apostasy. Specifically, saying, "The Society has taught falsehoods in the name of God" is "apostasy" to him.

{sigh}

12

Everybody's Free to feel good

by joelbear in

jw
friends

like the song says... i took to heart the statements that several of you made in one of my threads a week or so ago about being free.

its a long journey but i think i've made an important step.

i am tasting bits of freedom and its making me feel very good.

Ingenuous

So glad you're on the upswing, JB. Keep going and don't stop for nothin'!

1

Faith Based Initiative Stirs Debate!

by Atlantis in

jw
friends

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,169959,00.html faith based initiative stirs debatetuesday, september 20, 2005by wendy mcelroyon sept. 11, dalton mcguinty -- the premier of ontario -- announced that his province would not become the first western jurisdiction to allow islamic law to settle family disputes such as divorce, child custody and property settlements.

the announcement raises a question: when is it proper for the government to dictate the rules by which adults of sound mind agree to resolve family disputes?.

in the coming months, an uproar will rip through canadian society and courts.

Ingenuous

Boyd countered that arbitration was a private act -- as opposed to one in the governmental or public sphere -- and, so, it was not subject to Charter scrutiny. Arbitration was private because "there is no state compulsion to arbitrate." Moreover, "it is a reflection of the parties' relationship…because the authority of the arbitrator flows directly from the parties agreement to be bound."... As long as a family dispute is being handled peacefully and involves only consenting adults, then everyone else should mind their own business.

Oh, if only it were that simple! I suppose the author doesn't know how many "consenting adults" bow to the (sometimes unreasonable) pressures imposed by a faith, not to mention the sanctions known only to "insiders" that will be suffered in the name of exercising the "right" to "faith-based arbitration"

Gender feminist groups rushed to answer the question "when is it proper for the government to dictate the rules of family disputes?" Their answer seemed to be "whenever a woman is involved."
Their reasoning: Since it is possible for women to be brainwashed or pressured into private negotiations, all negotiations must be conducted according to identical governmental procedure and law

Is it common to insult women's intelligence in the name of lobbying for preventive legislation? The writer portrays feminists' concerns as if they see themselves protecting women's rights because women are less capable of maintaining their mental integrity and harbor some weaknesses of intelligence (being susceptible to brainwashing and pressure) that men do not have but rarely. Is this an accurate portrayal of "gender feminist groups'" perspective?

28

Depression Therpy

by Pbanna in

i suffer from depression and have been on meds, but now i choose not to take them.

i am thinking of going back into just "therepy" but my question is do jws beleive in therepy?

im not a jw but i do read and beleive the jw way.

Ingenuous

I started meds and talk therapy for depression and anxiety while I was still "in". Those few, select friends I talked to about my treatment seemed relieved to hear from another JW that they, too, were suffering and they weren't alone. Many, many more Friends than anyone knows are suffering. Many suffer in silence, ashamed and uninformed about the help available. Many who've never dealt with clinical depression assume those who suffer from it are mentally and spiritually weak and could just snap out of it if they wanted to/trusted Jehovah enough/weren't hiding some type of sin, etc. There are many who have no idea how clinical depression actually works and it can be a slap in the face to run into such people, especially once you know how many are slowly dying from this disease and aren't saying a thing. I think many people, consciously or otherwise, realize the elders aren't equipped for this type of situation and may, in their ignorance, actually do more harm than good. Many more realize they can't entrust their spiritual welfare, much less their mental health, to certain bodies of elders, depending on the atmosphere in a certain Hall.

Talk therapy was especially helpful to me after I started meds. Once the chemicals in my brain started to adjust, I still needed to re-learn how to think and needed to un-learn the habits my brain had gotten into when it wasn't functioning properly. But there was no way, before medication, that talk therapy would have worked for me - my brain simply was not functioning properly and needed to be "re-wired" before I was capable of healthy functioning. I went through a dozen meds/combinations of meds before we found the right one - a frustrating experience that can drive a person crazy all by itself. "Side-effects" (I don't like that term - effects are effects, whether intended or not) can be enough to make a person desperate. But finding the right combination resulted in my feeling "right" for the first time in my life.

I've been on the upswing for about 2 years now. Since leaving the Org, I've been able to reduce my antidepressant to half. I've also got a great relationship with a wonderful therapist who I can drop-in and see at any time, even though I'm not going regularly anymore. There's nothing like having a good relationship with a professional who is in-tune with your personality. Don't be afraid to hunt around until you find the right person. You'll know them when you find them. I was fortunate to find a psychiatrist and therapist (a clinical social worker) in the same office, and they could communicate with each other. My psychiatrist, who I saw first, knows all the therapists in the office and was able to point me to the right one for me.

All the Best!

4

Watchtower-Lite: the dilution of theology?

by kid-A in

jw
friends

remember the 90 year old dubs in your hall that would always have some answer at the study full of the weird old russell-rutherford era theology?

you know, all the different "classes", weird watchtower terminology, "scarlet coloured harlot" , "sounding of the 10 horns" etc etc and you would be sitting there thinking wtf????.

comparing the old school witnesses to the "witness-lite" of today, would you agree that at least that old school theology had some more substantive attempts at theology.....flipping through a recent wt i was struck by the complete fluff that filled the pages from start to finish....do you think this dilution of theology is intentional or have they just completely run out of theological steam, as it were?

Ingenuous

While I don't agree with many of Russell's assertions, it's clear that his theology was quite systematic. He "stood on the shoulders" of the Adventists before him to get to his own unique theology and he seemed to think quite deeply about the details of what he believed. I've been reviewing his writings and have been able to understand two separate lines of reasoning he uses to establish 1914, a system of "Jubilees" he uses to determine the beginning of the Millennial reign, and an entire system of Gospel parallels to Jewish history. Again, he didn't come up with all of this from scratch, but he managed to put out 6 volumes on it all, at least a few thousand pages - and, from my discussions with modern-day Bible Students, there's still tons of stuff that hadn't been specifically delineated. I've found reviewing Russell's works eye-opening, even if I don't buy into all of it. It's stimulated me to think-out my beliefs and reasoning behind them a lot more.

Rutherford was on a completely different planet, one which eventually became known as today's WTB&TS, so I've got a lot less interest in examining his works in any depth.

19

"Conscience" matters

by Lady Lee in

so just how things does the wts call a matter of conscience and in the next breath condemn.. as far back as i can recall jws were told that certain things were conscience matters.

they they would go into some long detailed description of instances in the bible where such-and-such a practice was condemned.

they would add in stories of how things went terribly wrong when some people actually did the suspect action.

Ingenuous

When the term "conscience matter" is used within the Org - among JWs - it refers to those areas that the Org has given JWs permission to use their consciences on.

When the term is used outside the Org and in matters of discipline, it refers to an individual's general freedom and ability to make a choice, but the unspoken caveat is that one of those choices will carry with it sanctions levelled by the Org.

"Freedom of conscience" is only "properly" exercised when it results in the outcome determined by the Org as acceptable.

*** w93 2/1 pp. 15-16 What Godly Subjection Requires of Us ***
Subjection to God’s Organization
6
Jehovah God has not left it entirely up to us to decide individually how we are to apply Bible principles to our lives. From the beginning of mankind’s history, God has used humans as channels of communication. ...
7 With the coming of the Messiah, Jesus Christ, God used him and his immediate apostles and disciples to serve as His spokesmen. Later, the anointed faithful followers of Jesus Christ were to serve as a "faithful and discreet slave" in communicating to Jehovah’s people how to apply Bible principles in their lives. Godly subjection meant recognizing the instrument Jehovah God was using.—Matthew 24:45-47; Ephesians 4:11-14.
8
The facts show that today "the faithful and discreet slave" is associated with Jehovah’s Witnesses and represented by the Governing Body of these Witnesses. That body, in turn, appoints overseers in various capacities—such as elders and traveling representatives—to direct the work on a local level. Godly subjection requires each dedicated Witness to be in subjection to these overseers in keeping with Hebrews 13:17: "Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you."

This was why I was especially angered when the Org published a quote concerning conscience in the How Can Blood Save our Life? brochure as if they agreed with it

*** hb p. 31 Blood: Whose Choice and Whose Conscience? ***
Respecting the religious consciences of Witness patients may challenge our skills. But as we meet this challenge, we underscore valuable liberties that all of us cherish. As John Stuart Mill aptly wrote: "No society in which these liberties are not, on the whole, respected, is free, whatever may be its form of government . . . Each is the proper guardian of his own health, whether bodily, or mental and spiritual. Mankind are greater gainers by suffering each other to live as seems good to themselves, than by compelling each to live as seems good to the rest."

10

IS SHUNNING BIBLE-BASED????

by hubert in

my wife and i watch a movie last night, called "the truth".

it was about an amish girl who got pregnant and had a child.

anyway, she was ordered to be shunned by all members for her wrong doing, for six weeks.. this brings up the questions..... is shunning bible-based?.

Ingenuous

I particularly liked the overview located here.

7

"Little Flock" as meant in 1881 by Rusell?

by TheListener in

can someone please help me with some old literature references about what exactly the society (russell) meant when he referred to the little flock in the early 1880s.. from my memory they thought that there would be two classes, the little flock, who spearheaded and performed the preaching work; and the bigger flock, who may have been in christendom's churches but had right hearts.

both flocks were going to heaven but the little flock would be co-rulers with jesus..

any quotes to back that up, or that show it's wrong??

Ingenuous

Russell's Studies in the Scriptures are available online. One location cross-referenced to scriptures (and easier to navigate on specific topics) is located here.

In Vols. 5 and 6, respectively, about the "little flock":

The Gospel age, from Pentecost to the setting up of the Kingdom at the second advent, is the time for the selection of this elect Bride of Christ class, variously termed "the Church," "the body of Christ," the "royal priesthood," the "seed of Abraham" (Gal. 3:29), etc.; and the continued permission of evil is for the purpose of developing these "members of the body of Christ" and to furnish them the opportunity of sacrificing their little and redeemed all, in the service of him who bought them with his precious blood; and thus of developing in their hearts his spiritual likeness, that when, at the end of the age, they are presented by their Lord and Redeemer before the Father, God may see in them "the image of his Son." Col. 1:22; Rom. 8:29

He [Jehovah] ordained that Christ should be the world's Redeemer, and that his reward should be exaltation as the first member-- Head, Lord, Chief of the New Creation. He ordained also that a certain specific number should be chosen from amongst men to be his joint-heirs in the Kingdom--participants with him of the New Creation. We have every reason to believe that the definite, fixed number of the elect is that several times stated in Revelation (7:4; 14:1); namely, 144,000 "redeemed from amongst men."

In Vol. 4, Chapter 3, Russell writes about the "great company":

Neither is there a second call during this Gospel age, though, as we have previously seen, there is a second class of saved ones selected during this age--the Great Company (Rev. 7:9-14) "whose number no man knoweth, out of every nation and kindred and tongue," who shall serve God in his temple and before the throne in contradistinction to the Bride, who will be in the throne and members, or living stones, of the temple. But these of this second company have no separate and distinct call. They might as easily, and with much more satisfaction, have attained to the glories of the divine nature had they rendered prompt and hearty obedience. They do come off victors in the end, as is shown by the fact that to them are granted the palm branches; but their lack of zeal hindered them from being accepted as of the overcoming class, thus preventing their eternal joint-heirship and glory as participants in the New Creation, as well as depriving them of much of the joy and peace and satisfaction which belongs to the overcomers and is enjoyed by them even in this present life. The place to which they will attain, as we have previously seen, will apparently be one similar in many respects to the estate or plane of the angels.

Games the Org plays - There IS a word for it.

by Ingenuous in

trying to describe the techniques used by the org to present "new light" and their efforts at "tacking" can be difficult without the right words.

i just finished robert crompton's counting the days to armageddon and thought i'd share his definitions for these actions, which are so hard to put into words.

it's also validating (read: it helps to know i'm not crazy) to realize how many others - including published authors - recognize the games the org playsto handle the complexities, it is useful to identify the range of basic ways in which millennialist systems may be adapted in response to the divergence between expectations and reality.

Ingenuous

Trying to describe the techniques used by the Org to present "new light" and their efforts at "tacking" can be difficult without the right words. I just finished Robert Crompton's Counting the Days to Armageddon and thought I'd share his definitions for these actions, which are so hard to put into words. It's also validating (read: it helps to know I'm not crazy) to realize how many others - including published authors - recognize the games the Org plays

To handle the complexities, it is useful to identify the range of basic ways in which millennialist systems may be adapted in response to the divergence between expectations and reality. The first possibility, which is hardly a modification at all, is displacement, whereby new areas of concern are brought to the fore and attention is diverted from potentially disillusioning scrutiny. The second possibility is redefinition of terms, whereby a system which had apparently failed can be retained with fulfilments matched to developing affairs rather than to orginal predictions. Thirdly, there is the bolder step of reassignment of expected events to different dates to produce a revised system. The fourth sort of response to perceived failure, of course, is replacement of one whole system by another. Finally, a millennialist system may be modified by attrition, or the unwitting loss of detail from otherwise unamended areas as modifications elsewhere, or simply the passage of time, force their own revisions.

One other technique is the development of "prophetic types" from subjects that went ignored until it was determined they could be useful.

With the passage of time, any predictive system must undergo change; there must come an accumulation of greater detail in the historical component of the system and a corresponding reduction in the predictive component. In the most straightforward case, yesterday's forecast becomes today's report. In the least satisfactory case, by contrast, the balance of detail between the two parts remains the same as unfulfilled expectations are continually deferred.... It has already been observed that developing events may be allowed to redefine predictions, as happened in the case of the Seventh-Day Adventist understanding of the cleansing of the sanctuary, and as was implicit in the later Watch Tower understanding of the end of the 'times of the Gentiles.' But further, the exposition of the prophetic corpus in the light of developing events may begin to treat areas which had previously received little or no attention and which had not, therefore, generated any predictions. Rutherford's treatment of Elijah, Elisha, Jehu and Jonadab is an example of this process.

19

What Doctrines Have Changed?

by Rayvin in

i was talking to my father about the awake!

mag talking about christianity and how their followers were losing faith and trust in the religion because doctrines have changed.

what was once a sin five yrs ago is no longer a sin.

Ingenuous

I've just finished reading a great examination of the development of JW doctrine from Russell thru the modern day: Counting the Days to Armageddon by Robert Crompton.