Posts by Ingenuous

22

When did JW,s stop considering the nation of Israel Gods chosen people?

by moomanchu in

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Ingenuous

looking_glass,

Yes. He discusses it in The Battle of Armageddon - page-down to the line containing the page number [D625] - he discusses it after that paragraph.

22

When did JW,s stop considering the nation of Israel Gods chosen people?

by moomanchu in

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Ingenuous

Z:

Definately not the 1900s, because Russell was a Zionist.
Ha???????????

See specific chapters in Russell's Divine Plan of the Ages (paging down to the line containing the page number [A294] ). Also, from his book and The Battle of Armageddon:

The peculiar circumstance narrated of our Lord's curse upon a fig tree which bore no fruit, and which withered away directly ( Matt. 21:19,20 ) inclines us to believe that the fig tree in this prophecy may be understood to signify the Jewish nation. If so, it is being signally fulfilled; for not only are thousands of Israelites returning to Palestine, but the Zionist movement, as all know, has now assumed such proportions as to justify Conventions of representatives from all parts of the world to meet year by year to put in practical shape the proposal for the reorganization of a Jewish state in Palestine. These buds will thrive, but will bear no perfect fruit before October 1914--the full end of "Gentile Times."

Not until the full end of Gentile Times (October, A.D. 1914) should we expect the earthly phase of God's Kingdom; for in giving a lease of dominion to the Gentiles until that date God made no mistake and his plans alter not. The earthly phase of the Kingdom of God when set up will be Israelitish; for such is God's engagement or covenant with Abraham and his natural seed. Even the chief favor, the spiritual Kingdom, was offered first to fleshly Israel, and would have been given to them if they had been ready at heart to receive it on the conditions attached to it-- to suffer with Christ and afterward to be glorified with him. ( Rom. 8:17 ) Israel indeed desired and sought the best God had to give; but "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for: but the election [the "little flock" selected from both Jews and Gentiles] hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded --not forever, but until the election of the spiritual seed, the Kingdom proper, is completed. Rom. 9:31-33; 11:7,23,25-32

While Israelites in various stages of unbelief will be gathered back to Palestine under divine favor, according to promise, yet none shall be in any degree reckoned as a part, or even as supporters of, or associated with the earthly phase of the Kingdom, except as they shall first recognize Christ Jesus as the Son of God, the only Redeemer and Deliverer for Israel and the world.

56

I caught my JW parents digging in my trash + an intervention

by LeftBehind in

jw
friends

oh where to start.

i will start with catching my parents digging in my trash.

my neighbor called me on the phone and thought i would like to know that 2 people were digging in my trash and asked if she should call the police.

Ingenuous

LeftBehind,

I wish my parents had been forced to dig through the trash. They used to have a key, so my father just waited until I went to work, then let himself in for a little "reconnaissance"...

It might help to do some reading on "codependence" in getting ideas on how to break away. I'd highly recommend Melodie Beatty's books, as well as a couple "how to" books, like Emotional Blackmail and Toxic Parents.

9

JW vs Orthodox Study, Developing a Verse

by jgnat in

a young man who has been asked to develop a talk around isaiah 60:22 "how does is this verse being fulfilled today" .

he asked me to help, but not just to prepare the jw-sanitized version, but how we might include some, you know, alternative interpretations.

i thought it might be helpful to compare how a jw would study and prepare for a study, versus orthodox (or the highly unorthodox scholarship of jwd) when tackling the same verse.. 22 the least of you will become a thousand, .

Ingenuous

He could open with a couple lines like this: "It might be interesting to start our study of this verse by considering what our first president, Charles Taze Russell, taught about it. Since God's one true organization was selected in 1919, and Brother Russell's views were widely taught at that time, it must be true for us today. If Brother Russell was teaching untruth, our 'faithful and discreet slave' could not have been selected by Christ in 1919. Since we know they were, Brother Russell's views have particular relevance for us today." Then he could quote a snippet from the March 15, 1896 Watch Tower:

Isaiah 26:14: The first nine verses of this chapter are a prophetic description of the Millennial day,--when the land of Judah has been reclaimed (verse 1) and when the nations of earth are walking in the light (teaching) of the glorified Church--the New Jerusalem. (Compare verse 2 and Revelation 21:24-26 and Isa. 60:11,18-22.)

Then he could clarify by mentioning that Russell believed the Jews would literally be restored to their "promised land" and that the millennial reign couldn't begin until this happened; The "blindness" Paul said would be imposed on the Jews would be lifted, the majority would accept Jesus as Christ, and the new jewish nation would be the "headquarters" of the New System, spreading the gospel to the unbelieving nations and being used by Jesus and his anointed to express Jesus' authority on earth.

That would be an interesting talk...

14

So which Bible translation do you prefer, and why?

by mavie in

jw
friends

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downloaded e-sword recently, with about 50 different translations and commentaries.. which translation do you prefer, and why?

Ingenuous

New King James when studying with others - it's close enough to the original that I don't lose anyone if I'm reading aloud and up-to-date enough to echo the readings others give from their more modern or paraphrased translations.

New International for personal straight-through reading. (I particularly like the Bible in 90 Days NIV.)

New American Standard for a "literal" read during close personal study/research.

11

Do you miss fictional characters?

by Swan in

i just finished a 970+ page book this weekend, a breath of snow and ashes, and now i'm bummed.

i miss claire, jamie, brianna, roger, jemmy, ian, fergus, and marsali already.

it will be one to two years before i find out what other surprising twists are in store for the time traveling fraser family.. the lord of the rings was the same way.

Ingenuous

I used to really enjoy The Cat Who... series by Lilian Jackson Braun, but they've gone downhill fast since the first half dozen or so books. I miss the Jim Qwilleran of the early books. The recent portrayal of the character just isn't the man I fell in love with... [sigh]

I also had a thing for Shane in the book of the same name when I was in grade school. And I fall for every good guy in the westerns of Louis L'Amour - especially Hopalong Cassidy!

93

In ref. to child abuse

by jw in

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ok all time to get real.

child abuse is not limited to jw's.. if you truly want to stop child abuse first start with the family , and be honest we all have a relative that is a pedophile.. then protect your family from stranger danger.. don't just isolate to jw's.. expand and truly stop the child abuse world wide.

Ingenuous

and be honest we all have a relative that is a pedophile.
Then protect your family from stranger danger.

I don't have any relatives who are pedophiles. Neither do the majority of people I know. Being surrounded by a majority of people who have relatives who are known pedophiles - outside of a support community -seems to me to suggest some type of relationship dysfunction. I also hope that statement isn't an effort to "play down" the seriousness of the discovery of a pedophile - wherever they may be.

While "stranger danger" is an important concept, having worked with sexually abused kids, I have to say that I didn't come across a single situation in my work where a child was abused by a stranger. It happens and is a real threat. All kids, however, need to learn about limits that anyone and everyone - even friends and family members - should respect and the need to communicate about a violation of those limits, no matter who crosses the line.

22

MIND IN OVERLOAD

by Broken Hearted in

for a week now i have been on this sight, the watch tower sight, reading 3 diffrent translations of the bible ( kj, nwt, and new american standard,) would have a 4th translation if i could read greek because i also have a greek new testament.

i have also been in long conversations with the guy that is a jw and find myself overwhelmed.

i am getting addicted to all this and the research.

Ingenuous

{{{{{Broken Hearted}}}}}

I feel like I am going in all kinds of directions and needing structure.

I believe this is normal. I felt similarly when I first started taking an honest look at my beliefs, where they came from, on whose authority I was accepting them, and why I held them. By unlearning old beliefs, changing your way of thinking, and learning new facts, you are literally blazing new trails in your brain. It can be disconcerting when you've got to re-draw the map from scratch, but it is an excellent work-out for your faculties of reason.

I was accused of looking for the negative, by being on this sight, I don't really think that is what I am doing just trying to get understanding of something I have never been exposed to and was raise to fear.

Your motives make sense. If you are using facts and being honest about your feelings, the accusations leveled against you only make sense to those whose minds are closed and/or motivated by fear themselves.

They do make you study and learn more about what they tell you that you believe, They know their scriputre and thier history.

As touched-on by lovelylil, JWs give the appearance of being thorough and impartial researchers, but I didn't realize this was only an illusion until I left. Since I left and did research apart from JW literature, I have discovered how often Witnesses ignore and/or re-write history and take scripture out of context. The world, the people in it, and its history are very different from what I was taught they were as a JW. Using multiple JW sources as the background of one's research makes it seem one has done the "footwork", but, having been raised a JW and living as one for nearly the first 30 years of my life, I've discovered how the Org mediates reality. They limit and shape their audience's understanding and make it seem one has done their research because they advocate trusting that the Org has done all the research necessary and have done so honestly (honestly = the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth).

He has suggested I call my local kingdom hall to get the answers maybe they could explain it better. Told him was not doing that, then I asked him if his elder father would be able to explain it a better way.

While it is commendable to ask for help from someone when we can't do something on our own, think about what this statement means. It means that a major doctrine and practice in a group which is not understood well enough to be explained to someone else is still accepted as correct due to the commands of men. If such a teaching - which has a major and irreversible affect on one's life no matter what the ultimate outcome decided by the elders - cannot be adequately explained and supported by a believer, what does that say about who is inventing these teachings, how they are being enforced, and the state of mind those with authority in the Org wish to maintain in the rank and file?

Guess I am looking for suggestions on how to not be negative on this research .

Sometimes, this is not possible. When one encounters something truly negative, it would be dishonest to attempt to make it anything else. It would be a form of denial. On the other hand, it can help to see isolated experiences as anecdotal until enough similar experiences are gathered to reasonably suggest a pattern is emerging. While recognizing that many things others say can originate from hurt feelings, extracting the main issue conveyed in another's experience and evaluating it seperately from the attitude of the writer can help in determining the "rightness" or "wrongness" of the circumstances in question. It's also good to evaluate the reactions you receive during your search: When you present information to someone, is the information itself discussed, or are you attacked personally? Is the issue at hand given the focus or are "strawmen" (non-existent or irrelevant arguments) used to distract from the main point of the discussion? And - a personal opinion - gut feelings can often lead to an intuitive but accurate assessment of the "attitude" being promoted, whether during an actual discussion or while reading an argument.

why does a JW when answering a question always have to use and anology to get their point across and not just answer the question at hand?

When I was a JW, I and other Witnesses used this method when we knew a straight answer would be offensive or would close someone's mind to our argument. It is a way of avoiding 'letting your 'Yes' mean 'Yes' and your 'No', 'No'" because you 1) don't want to be tied down to a specific answer and 2) you want to manipulate your audience into seeing your side and need them to remain open to your perspective. Manipulation isn't always a bad thing - we do it every day. But when someone isn't aware of the manipulation and the techniques used are designed to circumvent independent or contradictory thought, one moves into the dangerous realm of thought reform.

I know it's hard and exhausting, but keep at it. You will eventually become proficient at such critical examinations. Don't hesitate to just take a break once in a while, though. A period of shifted focus (onto something totally unrelated) can often help your mind process the material you've already covered and broaden your perspective.

11

Archaeological Study Bible

by mavie in

jw
friends

has anyone studied the bible with the archaeological study bible published by zondervan?

the niv translation is used with cross-references and footnotes along with a ton of archaeological, historical, and geographical essays/factoids relating to the text of the bible.

bought it at my local bookstore.

Ingenuous

I was just looking at that today in Borders. Let us know if you have any additional thoughts on it, Mavie. I'm going to wait 'til Borders emails me a 25% or 30% off coupon before buying it.

38

Watchtower "Worship"

by Sunspot in

let's discuss "watchtower worship"....or the understanding of the idea of "worship".

this is defined as "a reverence for god" in my dictionary.

the cold and clinical buildings that they "worship" in,

Ingenuous

4) The JWs boast to others about their "pure worship" but they don't actually seem TO worship at the Kingdom Halls...but they DO listen to the same talks in the same order, in the same way and hearing the same points given on how to speak properly...as in The Ministry School.
NOT (pure) worship.
5) And the JWs learn how to better present their literature as seen during the "Service Meeting". The JWs get sales tips, important tactics and relevant demonstrations.
NOT (pure) worship.
... 7) A WTS "Public Talk"....is just what it states....a talk primarily geared toward the "public".. A Watchtower Representitive on a stage....telling others what the WTS beliefs are.
NOT worship.
8) The "Watchtower STUDY".....discusses what the Watchtower Society wants the JWs to "learn" by pre-printed questions and answers from the paragraphs in the WT magazine they already have from home and have preciously read..(and studied) in order to be "prepared" to study at the Kingdom Hall.
NOT worship.
9) The "Congregation Bookstudy"....just what it says. And another printed question and answer session taken from a pre-chosen book that each JW must have. NOT worship.
10) Is this "Perpetual Indoctrination"??....or pure worship...I say NOT worship..(would YOU?)....

This bothered me a great deal for the years preceding my departure from the Org. Each time it came up, I'd put it "on the shelf." I tried not to think about the fact that we didn't really "worship" at the Hall, no matter what the FDS said about meeting attendence. Even the songs - they were mostly miniature public talks with very few qualifying as praise to God or Christ. I was never sure how to worship since the meetings were either about 1) bringing more people in, 2) what's wrong with you and the rest of the congregation, 3) the same items repeated ad nauseum. Most JWs probably look down on others' worship because they have no idea what it means, feels like, or looks like to worship.