Posts by Ingenuous

25

Witnesses.....will they REALLY be any different in the New System?

by gumby in

in talking to a fellow ex-dub buddy of mine the other day, it occured to me that in many ways....witnesses could be living the life they expect to live in the new system.......but they don't.. in the publications we see picture after picture of smiling brothers helping each other frame each others new houses ....for free.

we also never see in the publications poor african people walking through aligator/ piranna infested swamps to get to a kingdom hall either in the new system.. .

the fact is......brothers hire brothers in this system to help build their new homes and are taught not to expect free labor, but to pay them as you would the next guy.. with regards to the poor africans.....and others...., the jehovahs witness organisation has enough money to see that fellow believers in poorer countries should not go hungry or be without a meeting place to worship in.

Ingenuous

When I was in, I used to comment that there was a reason we needed 1,000 years to get our acts together.

41

I was reading a post today about the kingdom songs we sang as JW's.

by booker-t in

i was thinking about the kingdom songs we sang as jw's and was wondering about you posters out there that are ex-jw's or still jw's what was you all time favorite "kingdom song" or what was you all time horrible song that we sang from both songbooks (1966 songbook or the later songbook made in 1984 sing praises to jehovah.

my favorite song was song #119 in the 1966 songbook "keep your eyes on the prize".

i like this song because it made me feel that armaggeddon was coming fast and the "new system" would be here to give me the prize.

Ingenuous

I still like #77 - I think it's "Jehovah God is My Shepherd." (Don't have a songbook in front of me at the moment.)

I used to tell my folks that, if they had to bury me, I wanted that song at my funeral. (How macabre!)

67

anyone ever wonder whether IT could be the TRUTH?

by Cordelia in

jw
friends

i cant believe im posting this either!.

but ive got a huge decision to make wont go thru it all again its on my last thread, and i have decided that i am stopping going to the meetings completly (ive been dfed 7 months and because i didnt want to hurt my family even more i continued going to all the meetings and hid my boyfriend, wno was wonderful about it, put a letter of reinstatement in which they refused but relised by the way i paniked when i thought they might reinstate me that it is not what i want!).

i love my bf and want to be with him without any secrecy but i also want my family to accept him and still speak to me but i know that will not happen, so i have two choices either get reinstated and then leave (and risk losing mybf) or tell them now i dont want it and stop the meetings altogether before i go insane.. thing is to be free of the meetings and be with my bf, i will lose my family they are all so strong in the 'truth' they will not have any contact with me and my husband is divorcing me so ill lose finacially and my house and have to share time with my daughter, not to mention all my old friends who are wanting me back, and if i stop now all those months of trying to be reinstated will be wasted id be set right back,.

Ingenuous

When I started my journey out of the Org, I often prayed that I was wrong and just needed the right form of correction/discipline to see where I'd gone astray. I wanted to be wrong so badly - I would take the pain of being proven intellectually incompetent over losing my parents. But I don't feel that way anymore.

You might want to take a look at acuragirl's post, Still On the Fence.

18

Are there any former dubs who were petrified by the demons?

by Check_Your_Premises in

how did you get over these phobias?.

was there a christian or bibilical based explanation that helped you to get over these phobias?.

cyp

Ingenuous

Was there a Christian or bibilical based explanation that helped you to get over these phobias?

I'm likely making myself a target for derision with this post.

It's trite, but the saying, "If you pray, why worry? If you worry, why pray?" comes to mind. It occured to me early in my efforts to leave the Org (and deal with fears that the demons would take advantage of my "spiritual weakness," as demonstrated by my doubting attitude) that it was a flagrant display of my lack of faith if I prayed for spiritual protection from a spiritual threat and was still afraid.

I also thought about what I was taught about demons in the Org, that one has to provide an "opening" of some sort for them and, without such, there was no reason to fear them. I remembered how 99% of the "demon" stories I heard involved JWs as targets and started thinking about obssessive fear and preoccupation with demons just being another form of spiritism.

All completely subjective and unscientific and likely seen as hokum by many, but it worked for me. Fortunately, I need far fewer instances of mental gymnastics to keep from lapsing into that phobia now. Sorry, no scriptures.

9

Weird Dream.

by RichieRich in

jw
friends

please allow me to preface the following by saying, i'm not a dreamer.

i do have aspirations, and those kinds of dreams, but i don't really have literal dreams.

occasionally, my sleep is permeated by the thought of a beautiful young woman, or a big ole pickup sitting in my driveway.

Ingenuous

It least it was a dry dream, considering all the flotsam and jetsam.

Oy...

22

What's with my Mom and the NWT?

by Ingenuous in

before i left the org, i decided to start doing my personal bible reading in a translation other than the nwt.

my mother seemed bothered by this, wanting to know why i didn't want to use the nwt, describing why she greatly preferred it to other translations, and generally adopting a worried look whenever i mentioned the topic.

i talked to her this morning and she turned the conversation into a q&a session on a bible i was looking for in a local bookstore.

Ingenuous

Thanks for everyone's input. I'm going to make a note of this thread in the hopes that my Mom may one day be ready to take head of the ideas in it.

Thinking over what you all have written, I wonder if Witnesses have the impression that other Bible translations are just shy of apostate literature - if not already well over that line. It doesn't occur to them that the NWT has at least as much bias as any other Bible translation - it certainly didn't occur to me. I assumed I could trust every "jot and tittle" from the F&DS because their motives were so pure.

Yeah, I know, I know...

80

WT Dec 1st 2005, calls us "pests" to be exterminated

by BluesBrother in

ok, if somebody has commented on this article before, well i guess i missed it.

this really got my goat though .

it really plumbs the depths of sadistic, heartless, thinking .

Ingenuous

People everywhere are being given the opportunity for survival and salvation.

If the "opportunity" consists of the "preaching work," then this is a lie.

It's being used to ease the minds of those who might worry about the true extent of the WWW or are inclined to think about it "too much." It's easy to memorize and repeat and appears to succinctly answer the "But what about..." questions.

When I was in, I certainly never thought about testing out the assumptions surrounding the thoroughness of the WWW. It never occured to me to go up to five people on the street at random and ask them if they knew what the "good news" was that JWs preached and if they knew what life-or-death choice they were being presented with at that one (and possibly only) encounter with a Witness at the door.

14

fear not those who kill the body

by John Doe in

jw
friends

witnesses believe that the soul and the body are the same thing, right?

well, i had one of the old songs running through my head today, and it hit me what it was saying: .

"fear not those who kill they body, but cannot destroy the soul.

Ingenuous

Hey, I'm on a roll with the quotes:

it-1 pp. 616-617 Destruction
The possibility of eternal destruction for some is also indicated by Jesus’ words at Matthew 10:28: "Do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." Regarding this text, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (edited by C. Brown, 1978, Vol. 3, p. 304) states: "Matt. 10:28 teaches not the potential immortality of the soul but the irreversibility of divine judgment on the unrepentant." Also, Bauer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (revised by F. W. Gingrich and F. Danker, 1979, p. 95) gives the meaning "eternal death" with reference to the Greek phrase in Matthew 10:28 translated "destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." Thus, being consigned to Gehenna refers to utter destruction from which no resurrection is possible.

9

Weird Dream.

by RichieRich in

jw
friends

please allow me to preface the following by saying, i'm not a dreamer.

i do have aspirations, and those kinds of dreams, but i don't really have literal dreams.

occasionally, my sleep is permeated by the thought of a beautiful young woman, or a big ole pickup sitting in my driveway.

Ingenuous

I'm with Crumpet.

While much of my dreaming consists of so much subconscious flotsam (and, possibly, jetsam), I have a tendency to dream about things that 1) I'm spending a lot of time thinking about, 2) I'm trying not to think about, or 3) I don't consciously realize are an issue for me.

I won't go into details, but it was a dream that started me on my journey out of the Org. Looking back, my mind was clearly obssessed with an issue, consciously unknown to me, that I needed to pursue. And when I did, it changed everything.

17

Why do the WT call ex-jw's "apostate"? Even if we still love Jehovah,Jesus?

by booker-t in

jw
friends

i was wondering the other day when my neighbor(who is an jw elder) called me an "apostate" for refusing to return to jw's.

when i left the wt i never stopped loving jehovah and jesus i just could not stomach the wt society anymore.

there are alot of us ex-jw's who still love jehovah and jesus and still read our bibles.

Ingenuous

Because loving Jehovah, Jesus, and the Bible don't count - according to them.

*** w86 4/1 pp. 30-31 --
Why have Jehovah’s Witnesses disfellowshipped (excommunicated) for apostasy some who still profess belief in God, the Bible, and Jesus Christ?
Those who voice such an objection point out that many religious organizations claiming to be Christian allow dissident views. Even some clergymen disagree with basic teachings of their church, yet they remain in good standing. In nearly all the denominations of Christendom, there are modernists and fundamentalists who greatly disagree with one another as to the inspiration of the Scriptures.
However, such examples provide no grounds for our doing the same. Why not? Many of such denominations allow widely divergent views among the clergy and the laity because they feel they cannot be certain as to just what is Bible truth. They are like the scribes and Pharisees of Jesus’ day who were unable to speak as persons having authority, which is how Jesus taught. (Matthew 7:29) Moreover, to the extent that religionists believe in interfaith, they are obligated not to take divergent beliefs too seriously.
But taking such a view of matters has no basis in the Scriptures. Jesus did not make common cause with any of the sects of Judaism. Jews of those sects professed to believe in the God of creation and in the Hebrew Scriptures, particularly the Law of Moses. Still, Jesus told his disciples to "watch out . . . for the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees." (Matthew 16:11, 12; 23:15) Note also how strongly the apostle Paul stated matters: "Even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond what we declared to you as good news, let him be accursed." Paul then repeated that statement for emphasis.—Galatians 1:8, 9.
Teaching dissident or divergent views is not compatible with true Christianity, as Paul makes clear at 1 Corinthians 1:10: "I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought." (New International Version) At Ephesians 4:3-6 he further stated that Christians should be "earnestly endeavoring to observe the oneness of the spirit in the uniting bond of peace. One body there is, and one spirit, even as you were called in the one hope to which you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all persons."
Was this unity to be achieved and maintained by each one’s independently searching the Scriptures, coming to his own conclusions, and then teaching these? Not at all! Through Jesus Christ, Jehovah God provided for this purpose "some as apostles, . . . some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers . . . until we all attain to the oneness in the faith and in the accurate knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man." Yes, with the help of such ministers, congregational unity—oneness in teaching and activity—could be and would be possible.—Ephesians 4:11-13.
Obviously, a basis for approved fellowship with Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot rest merely on a belief in God, in the Bible, in Jesus Christ, and so forth. The Roman Catholic pope, as well as the Anglican Archbishop of Canterbury, professes such beliefs, yet their church memberships are exclusive of each other. Likewise, simply professing to have such beliefs would not authorize one to be known as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses. What do such beliefs include? [emphasis added]
That the great issue before humankind is the rightfulness of Jehovah’s sovereignty, which is why he has allowed wickedness so long. (Ezekiel 25:17) That Jesus Christ had a prehuman existence and is subordinate to his heavenly Father. (John 14:28) That there is a "faithful and discreet slave" upon earth today ‘entrusted with all of Jesus’ earthly interests,’ which slave is associated with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Matthew 24:45-47) That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the Kingdom of God in the heavens, as well as the time for Christ’s foretold presence. (Luke 21:7-24; Revelation 11:15–12:10) That only 144,000 Christians will receive the heavenly reward. (Revelation 14:1, 3) That Armageddon, referring to the battle of the great day of God the Almighty, is near. (Revelation 16:14, 16; 19:11-21) That it will be followed by Christ’s Millennial Reign, which will restore an earth-wide paradise. That the first to enjoy it will be the present "great crowd" of Jesus’ "other sheep."—John 10:16; Revelation 7:9-17; 21:3, 4.
Do we have Scriptural precedent for taking such a strict position? Indeed we do! Paul wrote about some in his day: "Their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number. These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some." (2 Timothy 2:17, 18; see also Matthew 18:6.) There is nothing to indicate that these men did not believe in God, in the Bible, in Jesus’ sacrifice. Yet, on this one basic point, what they were teaching as to the time of the resurrection, Paul rightly branded them as apostates, with whom faithful Christians would not fellowship.
Similarly, the apostle John termed as antichrists those who did not believe that Jesus had come in the flesh. They may well have believed in God, in the Hebrew Scriptures, in Jesus as God’s Son, and so on. But on this point, that Jesus had actually come in the flesh, they disagreed and thus were termed "antichrist." John goes on to say regarding those holding such variant views: "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works."—2 John 7, 10, 11.
Following such Scriptural patterns, if a Christian (who claims belief in God, the Bible, and Jesus) unrepentantly promotes false teachings, it may be necessary for him to be expelled from the congregation. (See Titus 3:10, 11.) Of course, if a person just has doubts or is uninformed on a point, qualified ministers will lovingly assist him. This accords with the counsel: "Continue showing mercy to some that have doubts; save them by snatching them out of the fire." (Jude 22, 23) Hence, the true Christian congregation cannot rightly be accused of being harshly dogmatic, but it does highly value and work toward the unity encouraged in God’s Word.