Isn't it possible that, when talking of either God, the spirit or heaven itself we are not talking about literal, physical or personalized 'things' I know it is easier to imagine God as a person, just as it was, and still is, easier for many to relate to God while gazing on a statue representing Jesus. But when we anthropomorphically personalize God we run into problems such as explaining John 10. Maybe it would be worth a moment to try and grasp the 'experience' instead of codifying the nature of God.
To me, knowing God is the experiencing of him, the sense of presence rather than a technical and absolute description of his being.
Knowing God is the key. If you know Jesus Christ, you know the Father because they are one. Christ is equal to the Father (John 10:30; Phil 2:6). Jesus claimed His deity while here on earth. He said He was the "I AM". It was at this and another instance when He claimed to be the Son of God that the Jews took up stones to kill Him for they thought He was committing Blasphemy - an offense requiring the offender to be stoned to death (Lev 24:16). The Jews knew exactly what Jesus meant by His proclamations. My point here is that Jesus was and is very personal. He came to earth in the form of man to save man from their sins. If Jesus is who He claimed to be (God - and He is), then God is very personal and not just a force we experience.
Now, with this in mind, if Jesus is God, then we should also be able to find evidence of Him in the Old Testament. He wouldn't have simply "popped up" in human history around the time of Christ. So where is He? Let's take a look.
The Lord (Jesus) wrestled with Jacob:
Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day. Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the socket of his hip; and the socket of Jacob’s hip was out of joint as He wrestled with him. And He said, “Let Me go, for the day breaks.”
But he said, “I will not let You go unless You bless me!”
So He said to him, “What is your name?”
He said, “Jacob.”
And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.”
Then Jacob asked, saying, “Tell me Your name, I pray.”
And He said, “Why is it that you ask about My name?” And He blessed him there.
So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”(Gen 32:24-30)
The Lord (Jesus) appeared to Abraham:
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,(Gen 17:1-3)
Now, above we see that the Lord has introduced Himself to Abraham as “Almighty God”. This is significant in the following verses.
And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.(Gen 18:1-5)
What is significant here is that Abraham recognized the Lord and knew which of the three was He. Later in the book of Genesis we again find something worth noting with regard to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah:
Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.(Gen 19:24,25)
How many Lords are represented here in Gen 19:24,25? Remember, there is only one true God. (Deut 6:4;32:39; Isaiah 44:6,8; 45:5,18,21,22).
Worthy of note is also Jesus’ words in John 8:56-58:
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
The Lord (Jesus) appears to Isaiah:
In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.(Isaiah 6:1-5)
One last thing to mention, the Scriptures say that none can see God without dying. So who is this “Almighty God” that Abraham saw, the Lord sitting on the throne that Isaiah saw, and the God that Jacob wristled with? God that man can see without dying.
And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.(Exodus 33:20)
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.(John 1:18)
Posts by mdb
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38John 10:15
by LittleToe injoh 10:15 as the father knoweth me, even so know i the father: and i lay down my life for the sheep.
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something suddenly struck me, while reading the aforementioned verse.. if the father knows everything (ginosko - to know "absolutely") and hence knows jesus intimately; how is it possible for jesus to know the father in the same way if he's merely an angel or "perfect" human?
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mdb
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John 10:15
by LittleToe injoh 10:15 as the father knoweth me, even so know i the father: and i lay down my life for the sheep.
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something suddenly struck me, while reading the aforementioned verse.. if the father knows everything (ginosko - to know "absolutely") and hence knows jesus intimately; how is it possible for jesus to know the father in the same way if he's merely an angel or "perfect" human?
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mdb
Aaaargh. I hate copy - paste here... it's such an ordeal. Never pastes everything!
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38
John 10:15
by LittleToe injoh 10:15 as the father knoweth me, even so know i the father: and i lay down my life for the sheep.
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something suddenly struck me, while reading the aforementioned verse.. if the father knows everything (ginosko - to know "absolutely") and hence knows jesus intimately; how is it possible for jesus to know the father in the same way if he's merely an angel or "perfect" human?
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mdb
Daystar, Give me a legitimate example of a force (such as water, wind, or fire) that has the attributes of personality.
I am certain of what I know is true. The issue here isn't if you think there might be a different number of primary attributes to a personality (1,2,3 or more), but whether the Spirit is a person or a force (if that's what you're getting at).
You'll have to forgive me, I'm not "certain" of what your question is or the intent of it.
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John 10:15
by LittleToe injoh 10:15 as the father knoweth me, even so know i the father: and i lay down my life for the sheep.
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something suddenly struck me, while reading the aforementioned verse.. if the father knows everything (ginosko - to know "absolutely") and hence knows jesus intimately; how is it possible for jesus to know the father in the same way if he's merely an angel or "perfect" human?
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mdb
If mdb isn't locked into a strict trinity concept perhaps he will agree
Not very likely. There is too much biblical evidence that the Spirit is a person and not a force. I don't think this thread was to discuss the "trinity" doctrine, but the Spirit has all the attributes of a person.
There are 3 primary attributes of personality: mind, emotions, and will. A force does not have these attributes.
The Spirit has…
A mind : 1 Cor 2:10; Isaiah 11:2; Eph 1:17; Rom 8:27
Emotions : Eph 4:30
A will : 1 Cor 12:11; Acts 16:6
The Holy Spirit...
Teaches: John14:26
Testifies: John 15:26
Guides: Rom 8:14; John 16:13
Commisions to service: Acts 13:4
Commands: Acts 8:29; 13:2; 16:6
Intercedes: Rom 8:26 **Jesus intercedes (same Greek word - entynchan o ) for believers: Heb 7:25; Rom 8:34)
Convicts men of sin: John 16:7,8
Bears witness: 1 John 5:6
Hears & speaks: John 16:13
The Holy Spirit can be…
Grieved: Eph 4:30
Blasphemed: Matt 12:32; Mark 3:29,30
Lied to: Acts 5:3
Obeyed: Acts 13:2,10
Sent: John 14:26; 16:7
He is contrasted w/ unclean spirits:
Mark 3:29,30
Lack of a name argument: Spiritual beings are not always “named” in scripture. Unclean spirits are rarely named and JW’s will acknowledge their persons (not active forces). The Holy Spirit is a designation of character.
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ParadiseWhere?
by AuldSoul inre chap.
7 p. 37 rekindle that first love!
14 since they have no prospect of living in an earthly paradise, how is it that anointed christians, such as those ephesians, are rewarded with eating of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of god?
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mdb
Well, let us consider it carefully. The evildoer alongside Jesus asked to be remembered "when [Jesus gets] into [his] kingdom." Whether we take Jesus response as "tell you today" or "tell you, today" the outcome is not altered, the evildoer is to be with Christ in
The difference in the outcome is quite evident. Interrestingly, the reason for this punctuation change (which seems quite harmless), is to keep the thief from being with Jesus in “today” (which would signify conscious existence after death).
The phrase, “Truly, I say to you”, in the Greek is amen soi lego and occurs 74 times in the Gospels. It is always used as an introductory expression. Jesus used it to introduce a truth that was very important. In 73 of 74 times, the NWT places a break (such as a comma) immediately after the phrase. Luke 23:43 is the only exception in the NWT (to support their doctrine).
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38
John 10:15
by LittleToe injoh 10:15 as the father knoweth me, even so know i the father: and i lay down my life for the sheep.
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something suddenly struck me, while reading the aforementioned verse.. if the father knows everything (ginosko - to know "absolutely") and hence knows jesus intimately; how is it possible for jesus to know the father in the same way if he's merely an angel or "perfect" human?
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mdb
I have absolutely not discussed pneuma, just the Johannine use of the neuter hen (one) referring to the unity comprised of the Father + the Son + the believers/elect. Now you can read the Spirit into that if you wish, but it is quite unnecessary to the current discussion.
Just using the opportunity afforded by your mentioning of a neuter term to bring to light a Watchtower interpretative fallacy in regard to the Holy Spirit. Might have been slightly off the topic (not really), but I had to do it. I wasn't attacking you and I did read your thread completely.
Besides, do any of these threads actually stay on topic? Being here is like being on a rollercoaster ride sometimes. -
38
John 10:15
by LittleToe injoh 10:15 as the father knoweth me, even so know i the father: and i lay down my life for the sheep.
.
something suddenly struck me, while reading the aforementioned verse.. if the father knows everything (ginosko - to know "absolutely") and hence knows jesus intimately; how is it possible for jesus to know the father in the same way if he's merely an angel or "perfect" human?
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mdb
jst2laws,
likewise have the father "in" them and themselves likewise are "in" the Father?
In Rev 3:20, Jesus says, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with
First, who was speaking here? Obviously Jesus was, but Rev 3:22 says the Spirit spoke that we should hear what He saith. We know from the Scriptures that the Spirit is sent (the Helper) and dwells within the man who believes and follows Jesus. Above it says Jesus will come in to him and in John 14:23, Jesus says that He and the Father will make their abode with him.
"Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."
Who is it that has come in to him that believes: Jesus, the Father, or the Spirit? Apparently all three. The Spirit is God, the Father is God, and Jesus is God. God dwells in us in the person of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is not a force, but a person.
Narkissos, you said,
"What the KIT tries to convey with "one (thing)" is that the Greek uses the neuter (hen), not masculine (heis), form of the numeral. Iow, "one thing," not "one person"."
This whole idea of a neuter noun and/or pronoun being used as a proof that the Spirit is an "IT" rather than a person is a poor arguement used by the WTS to support their bias doctrine. The biggest problem with their reasoning is as follows:
In the greek language, all nouns are one of three genders: masculine, femanine, or neuter. These genders are not indicators of sex, but have to do with the form of the words. There are masculine, femanine, and neuter forms, but ‘bread’ (in the Greek) is masculine, ‘head’ is femanine, and ‘child’ is neuter. Therefore, simply because a term is gramatically masculine does not mean it is masculine in gender, because a term is gramatically femanine does not mean that it is femanine in gender, and because a term is gramatically neuter does not mean that it is an “it.”
The primary reason the Jehovah’s Witnesses say the Holy Spirit is an “active force” is that the Greek word for “spirit” (pneuma) is neuter. This is faulty reasoning due to the gender of the word having to do with it’s gramatical form and not actual physical gender. For example, in scripture neuter terms are used in reference to infants (Luke 1:41,44; 2:16; 18:15), children (Mark 5:39-41), girls (Matt 9:24,25; Mark 5:41,42), unclean spirits (Matt 12:24,27,28; Mark 7:26,29,30), and angels (Heb 1:14). Obviously, each of these beings have personality, even though a neuter term is used in reference to them. Therefore, the use of a neuter term does not indicate a lack of personality and the argument is erronously made toward the Holy Spirit as not being a person due to the gramatical gender of the Greek word pneuma.
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Been Stewing over this since last weekend.
by XBEHERE ini just had to post this beware vomit alert!!!
you'll see how different this is compared to the october 1, 2005 issue that was studied last week.
*** g94 8/22 pp.
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mdb
"Who of you that wants to build a tower does not first sit down and calculate the expense, to see if he has enough to complete it?"—Luke 14:28
It's good advise, but why use a scripture such as this to determine whether you're going to be able to afford to go to school or not? It's a bit rediculous. The point of this verse is to "count the cost" of following Jesus Christ. Again, the advise is good, but it's being used out of context. The WTS does this a lot.
In context:
And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. (Luke 14:25-30)
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What Would It Take
by NestleBoy ina few months back i remembered a newbie asked in this forum what would it take for a current witness to "go over the edge".
in other words what would it take, personally as a witness, to stop going to meetings or to just quit being a jw?
what would you have to learn or see?
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mdb
life's too short to feel bitter over minor changes in the Truth
You can't change the truth, no matter how minor.
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What Would It Take
by NestleBoy ina few months back i remembered a newbie asked in this forum what would it take for a current witness to "go over the edge".
in other words what would it take, personally as a witness, to stop going to meetings or to just quit being a jw?
what would you have to learn or see?
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mdb
NestleBoy,
The Watchtower continually claims that they are getting closer to the light. Often, it's when a prophecy they've made has gone sour that they use this "cop-out". Do you believe it true that the WTS is continually getting closer to the light?