I did attend the memorial service of a non-JW at a KH...the husband of this pioneer sister had always been supportive of his wife, allowing all their children to be raised in the faith, very hospitable to "the friends" and was generally a very nice guy although never studied or went to meetings other than Memorial every year with her. As was pointed out, it is the call, evidently, of each body of elders how far they will go with it.
bythesea
JoinedPosts by bythesea
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Can Non-JW Spouses Receive JW Funeral/Memorial Service?
by SusanHere inmy jw sister's husband is dying of cancer.
he's never been a jw, though he has pretended interest for years, mostly just to keep her happy and hopeful.
i don't believe he ever intended more than that.
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The history of disfellowshipping in the WTS
by greendawn indoes any one know how the history of disfellowshipping arose and unfolded in the jws?
i have the impression that it started after rutherford died though he would very occasionally expel his troublesome opponents as "enemies of jehovah's people".
it was also rare in russell's days as far as i know.
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bythesea
I found a couple of places in R. Franz' second book, In Search of Christian Freedom, where he outlines some of the early history of the disfellowshipping process in the WTS. There is a blurb on pg 96 & 246-9. What he says on pg 96 verifies your comment about DF being rare during the presidency of both Russell and Rutherford, at least for persons who conscientiously objected to certain teachings.
Following Russell's death and Rutherford's election to the presidency a very different tone and spirit manifested itself in the org's administration. The legalistic manner which we now see within the org had its roots with Rutherford, from what Franz tells us. It was during the 1950's, though, that a code of rules began to be outlined, going beyond scriptures such as 1 Cor. 5. Much of that code of rules was determined by Fred Franz during his vice presidency to Knorr. I liked this comment from the book:
"I do not question the sincerity of Fred Franz' efforts in this area. but the result, I believe, illustrates how wrong it is to allocate to any man, not the mere extending of counsel or advice, but the actual deciding of matters that rightfully should rest with the individual consciences of those personally involved."
Hope this is some help to you... bythesea
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So tired of grief
by Sirona inhiya everyone,.
the thing is, i'm so tired of grieving.
it seems like i've grieved for so long.
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bythesea
(((((((((((Sirona))))))))))) Grieving is such an individual thing...there is no right or wrong way to go about it...it just IS. With hospice and bereavement counseling in my background I have learned that one should never look for things to return to "normal" again...when people we love and care about are now gone forever from our lives then life will never again be "normal". You will, however, find a NEW normal to your life eventually...and the labor of grief(labor just as in childbirth!) can take as long as it has to take...People mean different things to us in our lives, therefore our grieving for each individual we lose may be a different type of grief...but the pain in our souls is no less important or real. Having good days, then being brought to your knees suddenly another day is all part of the process. Its awful, but it will get better. As someone so wisely told you, just get into it...go to that painful place when it raises its head...embrace it.
The best thing to help us heal and to be able to move on is to be able to express our grief...be able to talk about the person to someone, which is why counseling is sometimes called for if we don't have someone in our life who can be there to just listen and allow us to go through the process without getting tired of hearing us! Don't ever apologize for your grief....it is a testimony of your love for the person... If a person doesn't acknowledge their grief and tries to bury it, be strong, be in denial or whatever, it most surely will raise its head somewhere down the road and MAKE you deal with it at a later date, possibly less convenient time! As you said..."Remember me??"
The many things we can grieve over, the losses we experience in life( through divorce, being DF, moving away, etc) only compound our sense of loss when a physical death of a loved one has occured. I agree with the thought that you should try to find a solution so that you can keep your dog...having to give it up at this point would only add another hole in your heart! And animals can be such a comfort to us...you need that happy face to come home to at the end of your day!!
My thoughts are with you...and I have a ton of resources I can share on grief...pm me if you want to talk or I can help in any way....hugs.... bythesea
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Notes from today's talk at the KH
by bythesea ini made one of my rare appearances to the sunday meeting today...and really picked a doozy for a talk to have to sit through!
misery loves company, its said, so i'm sharing the latest on "serving with jehovah's unified organization" (please bear with me..... the speaker(who was actually quite entertaining with his illustrations and props!
) opened up with a definition of belonging to an organization: it was, he said "complete conformity by a person to the standards and requirements of an organization"....then he used the example of how any org will kick out a member who chooses not to follow the standards and requirements of the organization...but in fact, in j's org they kick themselves out!
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bythesea
Hey! Just noticed I finally hit the Junior Member mark!!!!! Yippeeee for me!!
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Notes from today's talk at the KH
by bythesea ini made one of my rare appearances to the sunday meeting today...and really picked a doozy for a talk to have to sit through!
misery loves company, its said, so i'm sharing the latest on "serving with jehovah's unified organization" (please bear with me..... the speaker(who was actually quite entertaining with his illustrations and props!
) opened up with a definition of belonging to an organization: it was, he said "complete conformity by a person to the standards and requirements of an organization"....then he used the example of how any org will kick out a member who chooses not to follow the standards and requirements of the organization...but in fact, in j's org they kick themselves out!
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bythesea
EXACTLY, Inquisitor....I thought the same thing....and have asked my JW mate at different times how the two are to be reconciled....he puts it this way: "Jehovah uses imperfect men to run a perfect organization" Huh???? I'm sure I've heard that same explanation from the platform in the past, so its not his original thought! If they didn't insist on such strict obedience to imperfect men it wouldn't be such an issue with me, personally.
I just wonder why so few question it...its the cog. dis. coming into play, I guess.
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Notes from today's talk at the KH
by bythesea ini made one of my rare appearances to the sunday meeting today...and really picked a doozy for a talk to have to sit through!
misery loves company, its said, so i'm sharing the latest on "serving with jehovah's unified organization" (please bear with me..... the speaker(who was actually quite entertaining with his illustrations and props!
) opened up with a definition of belonging to an organization: it was, he said "complete conformity by a person to the standards and requirements of an organization"....then he used the example of how any org will kick out a member who chooses not to follow the standards and requirements of the organization...but in fact, in j's org they kick themselves out!
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bythesea
I made one of my rare appearances to the Sunday meeting today...and really picked a doozy for a talk to have to sit through! Misery loves company, its said, so I'm sharing the latest on "Serving with Jehovah's Unified Organization" (please bear with me....)
The speaker(who was actually quite entertaining with his illustrations and props!) opened up with a definition of belonging to an organization: it was, he said "complete conformity by a person to the standards and requirements of an organization"....then he used the example of how any org will kick out a member who chooses not to follow the standards and requirements of the organization...but in fact, in J's org THEY KICK THEMSELVES OUT! (He used that phrase several times to drive home the point during the talk.)
I won't bore you with all the ins & outs of the talk but he hit on 3 areas...
(1) How the Org is likened to a family: (Jehovah, his wife, the woman above who is the symbolic heavenly org, and children who are the annointed as well as the other sheep.)
(2)How we can be invited to be part of that family and our role in it: The speaker actually spent a little time discussing Jesus' ransom and how that sacrifice makes us righteous for life...and how our role as the other sheep is to support and back up the annointed who are Christ's brothers.
(3) How our attitude shows our unity or DISunity with the Org: He discussed a dangerous attitude vs. healthy attitude. The dangerous attitude is taking a HUMAN viewpoint of the org....that its easy to view it as human, fleshly, earthly instead of being heavenly....and that if we reject the org then we are rejecting Jehovah...which puts us OUT of the org. One cannot think that it is ok to just read their Bible, be a good person, and claim to love God....its NOT enough, one must bring themselves completely in line with the standards and requirements that J's org has set....and one of those is the meetings....it is NOT A SMALL THING to not be at the meetings!
We were reminded at the end that the FDS is not perfect, but our leader is Jesus Christ, not a man. And he ended with Heb. 13:17 about being obedient to those taking the lead, to be submissive to the elders so that we didn't make them sigh(ahhhhh), for it would be damaging to US...not to the elders!! His final thought was that by rejecting the requirements of the Org that we "kick ourselves out when we don't conform 100% to what the Org says."
I had thought I might stay for the entire meeting, having brought along the WT(and Blondie's comments for it!), but after that talk I had to leave, it was just tooooo much for me. So posters...not much has changed....if anything they are coming down even harder on not allowing for any personal thought on anything....we are to be robots, parroting exactly what we hear come from Brooklyn. Don't use your minds, don't think it is enough to read your own Bible(w/out the WT telling you what it means)... repeat after me....blah blah blah.....
And I promise I will never share another Sunday talk with you again unless I hear it from the platform that Armeggedon is the following week!
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I'm new here
by Keeli inthis seemed like a likely place to introduce myself.
i live in oregon and was disfellowshipped a couple of years ago.
i never went back to meetings and i don't intend to go back.
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bythesea
Awright!!!! Lets hear it for those Oregonians!!!!! Welcome, Keeli! Enjoy your stay and hope we hear more from you...bythesea
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My JW friend just read Crisis of Conscience!!
by fullofdoubtnow ini have recently been in fairly regular contact with a long - time jw friend who, despite my da status, decided to put our 25 - year long friendship before the shunning doctrine.
she has visited me, discreetly of course, several times, and has read on jwd and other sites when she has been here.
she recently watched some of the child abuse videos on silentlambs, and all she has seen has caused her to doubt the truth of the wts, after 45 years as a baptised jw, with many of those years spent regular pioneering.. it was the local dc a couple of weeks ago, and she only went for half a day, and missed the rest of the sessions, and she hasn't been attending all of the meetings lately either.
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bythesea
WELCOME Marian!!!!! We are in similar circumstances, except I still have a JW husband who is fighting me on leaving the WTS....as well as many many family members and 2 adult children who are upset at me for not going to most meetings.... so I am one of many here who can relate to your doubts, your uncertainty in how to proceed with doing what your heart and mind tell you must be done if you are to live peacefully with yourself. Its a very hard "wake-up" call, isn't it. Like you, I cried often as I read CofC and felt shattered at how duped I'd been for so many years. I don't know where my own inactivity will take me, I'm trying not to be DF for the sake of family relationships, but there is never any guarantee, is there?
I'm glad you have a good friend in Linda...and you will pick up more as you visit here....we look forward to getting to know you better and to see how it all works out for you. Take care.... and thanks for sharing your story with us!
bythesea
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About the convention in Illinois Thurs-Sun--I have questions!!!!
by whyizit ini am from indiana and my jw wanna-be friend is going to a convention on thurs.-sun.
in illinois.
i wondered what this convention will be about and if anyone else will be attending?
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bythesea
hey whyizit!! The purpose of the convention isn't specifically to pressure anyone into getting baptized...in fact your friend won't be baptized at this convention unless she has already gone over the 80(is it still just 80??) questions required before she is approved by the elder body.... that she qualifies for baptism. Since you are in regular touch with one another you might ask her if she's gone over the questions??
My own experience after I was baptized was not one of being pressured into giving up old friends...witnessing to them, yes!! I managed to hold onto different non-JW family and old friends over the 20+ years of being JW...and am finding those friends and family now a wonderful support as I am fading! I think it depends greatly on the kind of JW her Bible teacher is, how insistent she is in having your friend drop her worldly friends. You and your friend go back a LONG ways, so it will be interesting to see how she deals with you! I hope you will be able to influence her to keep you...and she will "see the light"!! Keep me posted!!
bythesea
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Joined as Adults--How has your thinking changed?
by lonelysheep inhow has your thinking changed from growing up worldly, to joining jw's, and back to normalcy again?
i began studying at 21 and stopped at 25, without getting baptized.
i no longer seek out anything to satisfy my inner self.
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bythesea
I was in my early 30's when I signed up....married, with children.....and can see now that I did it mostly to get on the good side of my JW family, whom I'd been estranged from during my childhood so was eager to finally have some attention from. However, now that I am trying to fade(after 20+ yrs in the org) I can feel the REAL me still in here....and am pursueing things that interest me and don't feel that I need to answer to a group of men sitting in Brooklyn or to have their approval on things that are none of their business!
Maybe its my age now, I don't know, but I just figured it was time to take back control over my life.