If I was going to be forced to read one, I would choose the Mankind's Search for God book. Although it is simplistic and uses part of every chapter for shameless self-promotion, it at least gave me (at 14 and newly baptized) a glimpse into other groups. That grew into a curiosity that eventually led me to research not only the history of other religions, but the history of the jws. And researching the history of the jws is pretty much a one way ticket to ex-dub land, in my opinion.
atypical
JoinedPosts by atypical
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18
Are there any good WT books?
by PopeOfEruke inor are they all crap?.
what book published by the wts could be said to have some redeeming quality?
i think the book of james is not a totally bad one, is it?
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19
We are NOT a CULT!
by UnDisfellowshipped inthe watchtower, september 15, 2002 issue, pages 16-18: .
the watchtower, january 1, 1942 issue, page 5: .
the watchtower, may 1, 1957 issue, page 274: .
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atypical
If an immediate family member of a staunch jw speaks against the human leadership of that organization, what would be the jw's reaction? What kind of loyalty does the human leadership demand from its followers? What does the leadership ask members to give up for the sake of current human-defined doctrine?
Yes, they are a cult.
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290
JW Children Lie in Custody Cases
by compound complex indirect and cross-examination questions in child custody cases.
wtb&ts, page 42.
"be careful that they [jw children being questioned] don't get the impression that they are in a demonstration at the circuit assembly, when they would show that the first things in life are service and going to the kingdom hall.
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atypical
Oro-
I applaud your rhetorical skills, but to say that you are in favor of "balance" is a joke. You are skillfully promoting an agenda, and you do so by playing with words. I don't think anybody here would deny that you are not the only one with an agenda; this site is mainly for those who have left the wts and feel that it has been a destructive influence in their life, so to use something so obvious as part of your argument is tedious. If there is anybody here who doesn't know that most of us desire to point out the hypocricies of the wts, I guarantee they aren't reading your posts.
You wrote:
Atypical,
read the citation (quotation) more closely. It does not say what you say it does, that is as you say "that the child are not to show that meeting etc. are first priority." The information very clearly states that the child should understand that the testimony is NOT like a convention presentation or congregation part WHERE the emphasis would be that meetings, etc. would be of primary importance.
This was an amazing paragraph. (You are welcome!) First, you made the implied claim that I did not read the material as closely as you did, further implying that this is the reason we disagree. This is called begging the question. Stated another way, it could be put, "If you read the material correctly, as I did, you would agree with me, because I am right." This is a valid argument, but not a sound one, because the premises are not true. But the really amazing part is that you continue on to restate the same point I already made - let's look at it again:
The information very clearly states that the child should understand that the testimony is NOT like a convention presentation or congregation part WHERE the emphasis would be that meetings, etc. would be of primary importance.
Exactly! Where is your argument? If the testimony is NOT like a convention presentation or congregation part WHERE the emphasis would be that meetings and service are of primary importance, then just what IS it like? Taking the statement completely at face value, the only honest answer would be that it could be like lots of different things, but explicitly NOT like a convention presentation or congregation part WHERE the emphasis is on meetings or service. So I will ask you, since you claim I distorted the information: Does the material say that the child should show that meetings and service are their first priority, or does it imply that the child should NOT do so? On to the rest -
No one is denying that meetings or one's faith is of "primary" importance and that is not the directive of the information. Again, the child (nor their parent, nor counsel) is not being told to be dishonest about the importance of their faith or of meetings, but only to present a full and complete picture of what their life is like. yes they will discuss their 5 meetings a week, etc. but they will also discuss their love of music, their hobbies, their other interests, their fav tv shows ,etc.
Great! Again, where is your argument? I was pointing out that the children are being directed NOT to show that meetings and service are their first priority; those were my exact words. What would be the most effective way to do that? It would be to follow your exact advice, and give the very misleading idea that meetings and service are only two parts of their very full and balanced life. This is not an honest picture of a truly active jw family, therefore I make the claim that they ARE being directed to be dishonest about the importance of their religion.
The goal of presenting an accurate account of how JWs spend their time is not intended to mislead the fact-finder or evaluator but rather to counter any preconceived bias or misconceptions that they may have about JWs.
Also, even though the "ideal" and encouraged state involves a significant amount of time and focus for JWs, the fact is that few JWs ACTUALLY do all that is "encouraged."
Actually, the goal is to win in court, not to present an accurate account. If the goal were to present an accurate account, there would be no need for this information or coaching. The fact that few jw's are able to consistently and perfectly keep all of the society's suggestions has nothing to do with this argument. The point of this argument is whether or not this information is encouraging deception by attempting to diminish the level of priority that religion has in a jw household. Am I wrong on this?
Regarding the issue of "pioneering" as a goal, in the literature or from the platform, that "goal" is tossed out as an encouragement to all, YET it is clearly understood that not all persons can do it or should do it. That is why it is always stated as a matter of whether a person can make it possible to do it. Additionally, the fact that one must qualify and be approved to be a pioneer also implies that not all JWs would have pioneering as a realistic goal. The vast majority of Witnesses have other goals and desires in life pursuits, trades and how they will make a living, and since 1995 have the "socially blessed" goal of higher education. Pioneering (or other full-time service like Bethel) has always been considered a special privilege and possibiliity for only a relative few. Thus it is NOT deceitful for a child to tell the court about their goals if in fact they do have such desires or goals.
-Eduardo
Again, completely irrelevant. Did anyone claim that every jw is a pioneer? Did anyone claim that jws have no other goals beside pioneering? It's frustrating to have to keep bringing you back to the original argument, but it is necessary because you are attempting to smokescreen the basic issue. Again, if jws had a normal priority system, there would be no need for coaching. I don't think anybody here would claim that every jw child is forced to pioneer. The real concern is the level of importance that is placed on meetings and service, not whether or not every jw is trying to pioneer. Would you argue the fact that basic meeting attendance and field service are supposed to be more important than work, school or hobbies for EVERY jw, pioneer or not? THIS is the information that would not be helpful to a jw parent in a child custody case, and it is the information that this directive is encouraging children to distort.
PS: No, it is not that I like to fight or start fires. I believe in balance and this is just one of those instances where I see somethng posted that is not only in error but conveys a very unbalanced and inaccurate viewpoint. I have read and considered the Child Custody pamphlet quite in depth and contrary to claims by persons such as Duane Magnani and others, it is not a manual for lying or "theocratic strategy" though it is obviously an not unexpectedly biased and imbalanced. I also don't think it particularly good at helping counsel who are unfamiliar with JWs either as clients or in opposition prepare for hearings or trial. Thus, I am working on my own guide for counsel in this area.
Again, I think it is silly to claim that you believe in balance. You believe in promoting a certain outlook, even if you have to cloud the issue or resort to fallacies to do so. Condescension is not an argument, it is just a simple bully tactic. I like your website, by the way. However, I think we may also disagree on the definition of "hottie"!
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atypical
I was falsely accused of being a jw the other day.
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290
JW Children Lie in Custody Cases
by compound complex indirect and cross-examination questions in child custody cases.
wtb&ts, page 42.
"be careful that they [jw children being questioned] don't get the impression that they are in a demonstration at the circuit assembly, when they would show that the first things in life are service and going to the kingdom hall.
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atypical
Oro-
Seriously, I am convinced that you just like to start a fire. The quote says NOT to show that meetings and service are the first things in the child's life. What's honest about that? Would a good jw child be allowed to pursue other interests over meetings and service? Why would there be a need to misrepresent the true jw priority system, unless doing so would hurt the jw parent in a custody battle?
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9
How many individuals did you help
by sspo inhow many people did you study with to the point of baptism when you were a jw and how do you feel about that.. in 30 years fortunately never brought anyone in except my kids even though i was very active in service.
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atypical
I never once started a bible study, but I was really good at helping the unpopular witnesses keep coming back when they were discouraged. I always had an obsession with the underdog, and I hated seeing people leave because they got treated bad by the superfine in-crowd. Now I look back and feel kind of stupid, but my motivation is still the same in a way.
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The evolution of my mind
by kwintestal inwhen i look back at the last 10 years of my life it's amazing the different changes that has taken place mentally.
10 years ago i was very much a jw, but struggling as a late teen, trying to balance my youthful desire to have a good time with my desire to please god.
it was a tough battle, sometimes god won, other times he didn't, but when it was all said and done i thought god and i were cool with each other.. then i became a husband and a father, trying to keep up with the extra responsibilities that were upon me.
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atypical
Thanks for sharing, Kwin. Here's my new favorite quote (it's Taoist):
Not knowing is true knowledge.
Presuming to know is a disease.
Good luck on your journey; I think you've discovered the most important thing...
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Demonic expereiences
by Tyrone van leyen inall bs and religion aside we've all heard the demon stories of the witnesses but has anyone actually had an personal experience such that you can't explain with your rational mind that shocked you and may lend credence to the possibility of something paranormal.
not something hyped, or emotional,but something your gut told you is just couldn't happen and did?
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atypical
It's been kind of amazing for me. When I believed all of the demon stories my parents and other jws told me, I had experiences all the time that made me wonder if something was happening. Now that I have decided to take a vacation from BS, suddenly there is an explanation for every noise and shadow in my life.
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13
Has anyone read any Echart Tolle?
by new boy in"the power of now".
"a new earth".
i must say both books blew me away.......................life changing!
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atypical
I read "The Power of Now" at the recommendation of another poster here at jwd and loved it. (Thanks, James Thomas!)
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73
What's the most stupid comment a JW told you?
by JH ini remember when i was new in the "troof", i was walking in a mall and a jw window washer saw me, and asked, "what are you doing here"?.
yeah, he had a good reason to be at the mall, cause he was washing windows, but i had no business there.... i guess he thought that i was being seduced by material stuff.... and i was stupid enough, not to tell him, mind your own business fu**er....
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atypical
I'm embarrassed to even tell this, but it's too perfect for the thread.
I was with four friends, three of them were inactive and one was df'd. We were at a strip club, and we were all drinking and smoking cigars. One of the inactive friends turned to my df'd friend and said, "You should get reinstated so that we can hang out like this all the time." I'm not lying, he really said that. To top it off, that was the only time in my life I have ever been to a strip club, and I got talked into it by this same guy who made the comment. I always think back to that statement and laugh, because it perfectly sums up the witness mentality.