Posts by SimonSays

54

Polytheism in the Book of Daniel, a late second temple religious document

by fulltimestudent in

as jehovah's witnesses we committed ourselves to a blind belief in a monotheistic judaism that was automatically transmitted to a new religious organisation, started (we were taught) by jesus.. that's the premise which this thread will discuss.

i suggest that sufficient evidence is available to throw doubt on both those beliefs.

so this thread will argue (over about a week-hopefully) that:.

SimonSays

Well once again it falls under interpretation doesn’t it? All that college glitter is paying off isn’t it mate. Since you’re fixated with the works of Daniel Boyarin as an unconditional authority and rendition of the 1 century Jew? Then you should also read and study the works of Stephen R. Miller, and Gleason Archer. Don’t make it complicated to the layman.

It is also the perception of some Jewish people in history not to have viewed Daniel as a commissioned prophet based on Ben Sira’s Testimony.

There will always be someone to think they have figured out the true nature of biblical text, but as stated you don’t need a classroom to understand the bible. You make it sound as if Boyarin is the first to place this argument before the people, he isn’t. The book of Daniel has been argued for a long time and the assertions of how many authors there were in writing the book. The two most examples are:

Robert I Bradshaw

The date of the book of Daniel is one of the most hotly contested themes in OT scholarship. Two main views prevail: a) that the book was written in the second Century BC in Judea in order to encourage the people of Israel undergoing persecution by the Seleucids under Antiochus IV Epiphanies’. Writing after the event the writer cast his work as a prediction of the future and urged his fellow Jews to remain faithful to their God. b) That it was written in the 6th Century BC in Babylon by a Jewish exile named Daniel who served in the royal court and accurately predicted events that were not fulfilled until the Second Century.

Catholic Encyclopedia

The Book of Daniel, as it now stands in the ordinary Hebrew Bibles, is generally divided into two main parts. The first includes a series of narratives which are told in the third person (chaps. i-vi), and the second, a series of visions which are described in the first person (chaps. vii-xii). The opening chapter of the first series may be considered as a preface to the whole work.

If you wish to embrace Judeo-Christian ideology that’s fine, but call it for what it is, don’t make long speeches so people think you’re smart, because it’s also possible you didn’t comprehend the message Boyarin was attempting to establish, since it has nothing to do with trinitarianism that you used as filler for your argument.

So then, they only thing you have managed to do with this, is confuse ideals by pitting who were the Israelites, Jews, and Christians and at what point they separated to draw different points of views. Now that wasn’t so hard was it?

So, the question should be what role does the Jewish State of Israel play now that Jesus included all to be part of everlasting life.

Trinitarian or Unitarian

For hundreds of years most Christians have proclaimed to the world that Jesus Christ is “God.” They have told us that God exists co-equally in three persons. They say the Father, Son and Holy Spirit all exist in “one God.” Many even say that those who don’t believe that Jesus is God are not saved.

The Bible says that “if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved” (Rom. 10:9).

For many non-Christians, the idea of a 3-in-1 God is very confusing and unbiblical. Take, for example, Jews and Muslims. Both are monotheistic, which means they believe in “one” God. Most of them won’t even consider believing in a God that exists in “three persons,” because they reason that 1 + 1 + 1 does not equal one God.

Millions of Jews and Muslims have completely denied Jesus as their Lord, because of the teaching that he is God, and they simply cannot accept a Triune God.

So the concern is…

How many more people would accept Jesus Christ as their Lord (and be saved) if he were not presented to them as the “second member of the Trinity”?

Possibly millions? Surely this doctrine has confused and turned away a countless number of people since it was created more than 1,500 years ago. How sad to think that the idea of the Trinity has caused many to reject or even walk away from our Lord.

What honors Jesus more?

1. That he was God in human flesh – a “Godman,” who didn’t truly have free will, who couldn’t have sinned; “God the Son,” who always did the will of God the Father and always did what was right; “God the Son,” who died (How could God die?) for the sins of all mankind; “God the Son” come down from Heaven clothed in human flesh.

Or…

2. That Jesus was a flesh and blood human being who had free will, who could have sinned, but chose not to; the Son of God who laid down his life for his brothers and sisters; a man who could have disobeyed God’s plan for him, but who loved us so much that he chose to do God’s will and save us all; a man, who because of his accomplishments, was promoted to the right hand of God, made Lord over Heaven and Earth, and is now “functionally equal” with his God and Father.

For a human being with free will to never sin is the greatest accomplishment of all time. The idea that he is God greatly diminishes the magnitude of his heroism on our behalf.

Is Jesus God? Some say this argument is like “splitting hairs,” no big deal. But we say it’s one of the biggest attacks the Enemy has ever thrown at God’s people.

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

If we were the Enemy, and knowing God and Jesus Christ were the way to eternal life, we wouldn’t want people to know them. We would try to paint a different picture of God and a different picture of Jesus than what the Bible actually says. It is our belief that the primary attack of the Enemy has been an assault on the Word of God that began the moment it left the inspired hands that wrote it.

What a glorious opportunity we have right now to learn and proclaim the simple and liberating truth that “Jesus is Lord,” and that he will mentor each of us in the art of trusting our heavenly Father like he did.

54

Polytheism in the Book of Daniel, a late second temple religious document

by fulltimestudent in

as jehovah's witnesses we committed ourselves to a blind belief in a monotheistic judaism that was automatically transmitted to a new religious organisation, started (we were taught) by jesus.. that's the premise which this thread will discuss.

i suggest that sufficient evidence is available to throw doubt on both those beliefs.

so this thread will argue (over about a week-hopefully) that:.

SimonSays

I guess it’s the same arrogant mystical being that placed you in charge of thinking your wisdom is above everyone elses, Demigod, but keep telling it to the person you see in the mirror, perhaps the reflection will answer you back one day or worship you. Maybe fulltime student will buy into what you’re selling. If this person goes for it, let that person know the London Bridge is for sale also. It’s ironic since Ex-witnesses say they left the organization for the same reason, brainwashing, and then you press upon others to follow your train of thought as exceptional. Disturbing how the mind works. Interesting concept, brainwashed only to be brainwashed by someone else equates free will.

Demigod:

A being with partial or lesser divine status, such as a minor deity, the offspring of a god and a mortal, or a mortal raised to divine rank.

Matthew 15:13-14

Context: What Defiles a Man?

13. But He answered and said, "Every plant which my heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted. 14. Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.

Parallel Commentaries

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

15:10-20 Christ shows that the defilement they ought to fear, was not from what entered their mouths as food, but from what came out of their mouths, which showed the wickedness of their hearts. Nothing will last in the soul but the regenerating graces of the Holy Spirit; and nothing should be admitted into the church but what is from above; therefore, whoever is offended by a plain, seasonable declaration of the truth, we should not be troubled at it. The disciples ask to be better taught as to this matter. Where a weak head doubts concerning any word of Christ, an upright heart and a willing mind seek for instruction. It is the heart that is desperately wicked, Jer 17:9, for there is no sin in word or deed, which was not first in the heart.

54

Polytheism in the Book of Daniel, a late second temple religious document

by fulltimestudent in

as jehovah's witnesses we committed ourselves to a blind belief in a monotheistic judaism that was automatically transmitted to a new religious organisation, started (we were taught) by jesus.. that's the premise which this thread will discuss.

i suggest that sufficient evidence is available to throw doubt on both those beliefs.

so this thread will argue (over about a week-hopefully) that:.

SimonSays

Therefore mimicking the first century Christian by following Jesus example. Isn’t it always the way Viviane? But yes I do pity you, don’t worry.

Theology is not heighten by secular understanding of a textbook. True theology is not understood any better other than spiritual enlightenment. This is a personal journey and achievement. Confusing theology by comparing other propositions in different faiths, reverses the notion of true knowledge.

Ex-Witnesses by far that never understood theology and all its element’s involved within make precisely that claim. Higher education has no substantive claim especially when it comes to Christian Theology. I.e. I don’t need my PhD to realize biblical truth. There will never be a comparison between secular knowledge of the bible to bible knowledge itself.

Luke 2:46-52New International Version (NIV)

46 After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”

49 “Why were you searching for me?” he asked. “Didn’t you know I had to be in my Father’s house? 50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

51 Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. 52 And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

A true Christians understands bible principles by faith as you stated, such as 1 Corinthians 4:1-5 to not allow those that pretended to know the truth but never had it to be subjective verses to be objective to bible principles as Jesus did without being trained in secular knowledge but through Gods holy spirit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_theology

1 Corinthians 4 New International Version (NIV)

The Nature of True Apostleship

4 This, then, is how you ought to regard us: as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the mysteries God has revealed. 2 Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.

2 Peter 2 New International Version (NIV)

False Teachers and Their Destruction

20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

54

Polytheism in the Book of Daniel, a late second temple religious document

by fulltimestudent in

as jehovah's witnesses we committed ourselves to a blind belief in a monotheistic judaism that was automatically transmitted to a new religious organisation, started (we were taught) by jesus.. that's the premise which this thread will discuss.

i suggest that sufficient evidence is available to throw doubt on both those beliefs.

so this thread will argue (over about a week-hopefully) that:.

SimonSays

This is what happens when people begin to over reach and quantify words. The concept of linguistics is to reform language to become understandable for the commonwealth of its own society and culture.

If you haven’t noticed, certain words while equal in spelling have a different definition to cultures that apply it to conform to their own understanding.

HOMONYMS are words that sound alike but have different meanings. Homophones are a type of homonym that also sound alike and have different meanings, but have different spellings. HOMOGRAPHS are words that are spelled the same but have different meanings.

So far, there is about 900 ways to define the common word GOD.

http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/namesofgod.html

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/El/el.html

The following example illustrates how far the concept of GOD goes. Exodus 34:14

14-- for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God—

New International Version
do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

New Living Translation
you must worship no other gods, for the LORD, whose very name is Jealous, is a God who is jealous about his relationship with you.

English Standard Version
(for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God),

New American Standard Bible
-- for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God--

King James Bible
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Holman Christian Standard Bible
You are never to bow down to another god because Yahweh, being jealous by nature, is a jealous God."

International Standard Version
indeed, you are not to bow down in worship to any other god, because the LORD's name is Jealous—he's a jealous God—

http://disinfo.com/2011/03/god%E2%80%99s-name-is-%E2%80%9Cjealous%E2%80%9D/

Does this mean that GOD’s name is jealous or he is a GOD who is jealous? By definition it’s an oxymoron if you chose to view it that way.

In the original Hebrew, the key words in this verse are shem and qanna’. According to one of the standard reference works in this area — A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Hebrew Bible by James Strong’s — Shem is a noun meaning “name.” One of its specific denotations is “the Name (as designation of God).” The word qanna’ means “jealous” and is applied only to God.

Other English translations say the same basic thing as the King James Version. The New International Version gives it as: “Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.” The English Standard Version phrases it parenthetically: “(for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God).” The New International Readers Version gives God a more relaxed feel: “Do not worship any other god. I am a jealous God. In fact, my name is Jealous.”

The point of God’s name then becomes only relevant to those that wish to view this deity as real. Aside from that, it’s just another comparative word in literature between God and Gods. The question then should be, who is the GOD of Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac. Is it one God or many as suggested by polytheism?

Monotheism definition. A belief in one god. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all monotheistic religions. Then it would be objective rather than subjective.

Objective: (of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

Literature, in its broadest sense, is any written work; etymologically the term derives from Latin literature/litteratura "writing formed with letters", although some definitions include spoken or sung texts.

After that, then you have the many ways the name of God was ratified through the ages. So spinning it every which way does not transcend to its original intent, and it's original text of a single GOD.

18

Why are there so many pedophiles predators in the Watchtower Corporation?

by Brokeback Watchtower in

one reason is because the governing body's policies allow them to run loose in the congregation with their secrecy/kangaroo courts.

.

to keep jehovah's name untarnished(organization sock puppet) they have put the little rank and file member at risk.. one member of the gb was a child molester.. sexual repression also seems to aggravate the situation and make matters worse.. the governing body main concern is not children but how to keep the scam going and so if they can get the victim to shut up and not go to the police as it offers a temporary fix.. etc.....

SimonSays

No! No! this forum is for baring witness to the truth. I believe it goes TTATT. Nothing infallible here. Just like there is no misrepresentation about the WT Jan 1, 1986 page 13, bravo. There’s no deceit here.

12 Shocking as it is, even some who have been prominent in Jehovah’s organization have succumbed to immoral practices, including homosexuality, wife swapping, and child molesting. It is to be noted, also, that during the past year, 36,638 individuals had to be disfellowshipped from the Christian congregation, the greater number of them for practicing immorality. Jehovah’s organization must be kept clean! (1 Corinthians 5:9-13) This is a time for congregation elders, ministerial servants, and indeed all our brothers and sisters to avoid any circumstances that could lead to immorality. Loyalty to Jehovah’s standards will be rewarded, as Psalm 97:10 states: “O you lovers of Jehovah, hate what is bad. He is guarding the souls of his loyal ones; out of the hand of the wicked ones he delivers them.”

18

Why are there so many pedophiles predators in the Watchtower Corporation?

by Brokeback Watchtower in

one reason is because the governing body's policies allow them to run loose in the congregation with their secrecy/kangaroo courts.

.

to keep jehovah's name untarnished(organization sock puppet) they have put the little rank and file member at risk.. one member of the gb was a child molester.. sexual repression also seems to aggravate the situation and make matters worse.. the governing body main concern is not children but how to keep the scam going and so if they can get the victim to shut up and not go to the police as it offers a temporary fix.. etc.....

SimonSays

Oh I see, I thought you had firsthand knowledge not passed on since you were so sure of yourself since no one really knows what happened between 1984 -1990. The assumption you propose is pedophilia but some suggest for being GAY, but you also know the end result. Okay then, carry on. The ironic fore mentioned is he was real good friends with Raymond Franz, HMMMMMMMM!!!!!!

18

Why are there so many pedophiles predators in the Watchtower Corporation?

by Brokeback Watchtower in

one reason is because the governing body's policies allow them to run loose in the congregation with their secrecy/kangaroo courts.

.

to keep jehovah's name untarnished(organization sock puppet) they have put the little rank and file member at risk.. one member of the gb was a child molester.. sexual repression also seems to aggravate the situation and make matters worse.. the governing body main concern is not children but how to keep the scam going and so if they can get the victim to shut up and not go to the police as it offers a temporary fix.. etc.....

SimonSays

Interesting! Which one of the Governing body was a child molester?

184

Why are people burning their city to the ground in Baltimore? How doe Looting and Mob Violence Help?

by PokerPlayerPhil in

it's hard enough for businesses to enter these areas the government once had to offer up tax breaks to service them.

in watts, california it took decades for city residents to get a grocery store after the thugs burned their businesses to the ground.

you can see the insanity taking place, when you allow mobs and fools to burn building down nothing good comes from it.

SimonSays

I wonder how many here are qualified to psychoanalyze what is going on in Baltimore without first taking an in-depth look at societies as a whole, and the influence other cultures have made to the breakdown of morals not only in the USA but throughout the world that impacts civilization uniformly.

People are too quick to voice an opinion and condemn without knowing the truth behind the truth TTBTT, even though their far from it. A parallel that can be reckoned just as in religion. A paradox that will just get worse. The contempt the modern youth has on behavior and morals becomes a great disconnect to civil life. Something that government has been using and will ultimately continue to use as a pretext to form new governments.

16

Divine Name in the First Century

by freemindfade in

during the watchtower today while there was so much pontificating on the first century christian movement, i was wondering what would happen i asked your run of the mill r&f how paul and others would have been pronouncing the divine name?....

yes god's name, something witnesses claim was so critical.

but the absolute fact of the matter is that no christian was saying the name jehovah at all, period.

SimonSays

Hasn’t this been discussed already on a different thread.

So if the Encyclopedia Britannica

Yahweh

the God of the Israelites, his name being revealed to Moses as four Hebrew CONSONANTS (YHWH) CALLED THE TETRAGRAMMATON. AFTER THE EXILE (6TH CENTURY BC), and especially from the 3rd century BC on, Jews ceased to use the name Yahweh for two reasons. As Judaism became a universal religion through its proselytizing in the Greco-Roman world, the more common noun Elohim, meaning "god," tended to replace Yahweh to demonstrate the universal sovereignty of Israel's God over all others. At the same time, the divine name was increasingly regarded as too sacred to be uttered; it was thus replaced vocally in the synagogue ritual by the Hebrew word Adonai ("My Lord"), which was translated as Kyrios ("Lord") in the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament.

And according to Jeroen Ashton

In 1278 a Spanish monk, Raymundo Martini, wrote the Latin work PUGIO FIDEI (Dagger of faith). In it he used the name of God, spelling it Yohoua. Later printings of this work, dated some centuries later, used the spelling JEHOVA.

Soon after, in 1303, Porchetus de Salvaticis completed a work entitled VICTORIA PORCHETI AVERSUS IMPIOS HEBRAEOS (Porchetus' Victory against the Ungodly Hebrews). He spells God's name IOHOUAH, IOHOUA and IHOUAH.

Then, in 1518, Petrus Galatinus, a Catholic priest born in the late 1400's, published a work entitled DE ARCANIS CATHOLICAE VERITATIS (Concerning Secrets of the Universal Truth) in which he spelled God's name IEHOUA.

Now, the direct answer to your question: the name "Jehovah" first appeared in an English BIBLE in 1530, when William Tyndale published a translation of the Chumash (the first five books of the Bible). In this, he included the name of God, usually spelled IEHOUAH, in several verses (Genesis 15:2; Exodus 6:3; 15:3; 17:6; 23:17; 33:19; 34:23; Deuteronomy 3:24. Tyndale also included God's name in Ezekiel 18:23 and 36:23 in his translations that were added at the end of THE NEW TESTAMENT, Antwerp, 1534), and in a note in this edition he wrote: "Iehovah is God's name... moreover as oft as thou seist LORD in great letters (except there be any error in the printing) is is in Hebrew Iehovah." (Please note as I told you previously, there was no "J" in English at this time; the J is a product of a stylized I; thus giving us the current Jehovah rather than the Old English Iehovah. The "u" used in the above names is also a reminder that there was no "v" in Old English, as you can read David in the original King James version was written "Dauid".)

In 1534 Martin Luther published his complete translation of the Bible in German, based on the original languages. While he used the German "Herr" (Lord or Sir) for the Tetragrammaton, in a sermon which he delivered in 1526 on Jeremiah 23:1-8, he said, "The name Jehovah, Lord, belongs exclusively to the true God."

Subsequently, Jehovah was used not only in the "Authorized" King James Version of 1611, but the Spanish VALERA version of 1602, the Portuguese ALMEIDA version of 1681, the German ELBERFELDER version of 1871, and the American Standard Version of 1901. It appears that the Jerusalem Bible was the first one to used Yahweh instead of Lord and Jehovah.

The Masoretic, who from about the 6th to the 10th century worked to reproduce the original text of the Hebrew Bible, replaced the vowels of the name YHWH with the vowel signs of the Hebrew words Adonai ("Lord", editor) or Elohim ("God", editor). Thus, the artificial name Jehovah (YeHoWaH) (emphasis ours, ed.) came into being. Although Christian scholars after the Renaissance and Reformation periods used the term Jehovah for YHWH, in the 19th and 20th century’s biblical scholars again began to use the form Yahweh. Early Christian writers, such as Clement of Alexandria in the 2nd century, had used a form like Yahweh, and this pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton was never really lost. Other Greek transcriptions also indicated that YHWH should be pronounced Yahweh.

Hence forth the name kept by the Watchtower, and by 1931 it was used to distinguish Jehovah’s Witnesses from the International Bible Student Association. I believe that’s the point for JW’s to bring back the rightful name of God in modern language, but as you Stated, time will tell if they had it right. But I think that’s why they have faith that it’s close enough to use that name instead as an informal apathy like GOD.

I don’t know if you understand the concept of modern language, but Jesus wasn’t spelled that way either.

Mark 14:18-21 English Standard Version (ESV)

18 And as they were reclining at table and eating, Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me, one who is eating with me.” 19 They began to be sorrowful and to say to him one after another, “Is it I?” 20 He said to them, “It is one of the twelve, one who is dipping bread into the dish with me. 21 For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.”

16

Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Assist With Disaster Relief? (In Nepal)

by berrygerry in

do jehovahs witnesses assist with disaster relief in nepal?.

http://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/assist-with-disaster-relief/.

what say ye?.

SimonSays

I wonder how many here donate to disaster relief or for the poor and understand that only a small percentage of that actually makes it for that purpose. The Catholic Church makes those funds available to support their Fathers, bishops, cardinals that don’t work. The Salvation Army is much worse since they also use the donations to support the hourly wages of their workers. The evangelicals use their donations to increase their appearance on television. These religions file this money under operational cost.

So all in all, even if the WT uses donations to help their members, then the donations are only used for that purpose. Can your irreversible hatred say that?

Not to mention other religions that support their own by extending a helping hand to them only.

MDA announced that Jerry Lewis was stepping down as host of its annual Labor Day telethon, the marathon TV event he had made his personal showcase, soap box and sentimental journey for 45 years. Why, because MDA got tired of having to give Jerry Lewis 20% of what they raised for Muscular Dystrophy to him, plus people had found out and started donating less.