Posts by Inquisitor

42

Judah Ben Schroeder NOT finishing law school

by Seeker4 in

a few weeks ago there were a couple of threads about the wts and higher education, and some stated that judah ben schroeder (son of the late governing body member al schroeder) was attending law school at columbia university.

i got an e-mail from a very reliable source today about some inaccuracies in those threads.

here are some quotes from the e-mail, which the writer asked me to share anonymously on jwd:

Inquisitor

A JW friend of mine spoke of a young Bethelite who had completed his higher education and is now serving as a Governing Body member. She was quoting this example of a "highly educated" GB member as proof that the WTS isn't opposed to higher education. Might she have been referring to this Judah Ben Schroeder, albeit inaccurately so?
Or is there some other GB member who had attended uni before? Whoever she was referring to does not change the fact that the college-slamming Watchtower articles, the biased reporting of what goes on in colleges by the Awake magazine, the jaundiced tone of talks and demo's at conventions about secular careers, materialism and the spirit of independence and the absence of any Watchtower censure of prejudicial views towards higher education, proves that "Jehovah's organization" is opposed to higher education. INQ

21

Is the WT currently associated with the UN?

by lost_sheep in

i know this topic has been beaten to death, i apologize for flogging the proverbial horse again... but someone mentioned a few days ago (can't find that comment now) that the wt still has ties to the un.

what evidence do we have for this?

if one of its corporations is still affiliated with the un, seems like that would be quite the scandal.

Inquisitor

Thanks Auldsoul I get it now. So it's not their role as an NGO attending UN conferences that is the problem, but the actual instance of applying to be an Associated Member of the UN Department of Public Information that "incriminates" them.
Thank you so much for that concise explanation.

Regards,
INQ

21

Is the WT currently associated with the UN?

by lost_sheep in

i know this topic has been beaten to death, i apologize for flogging the proverbial horse again... but someone mentioned a few days ago (can't find that comment now) that the wt still has ties to the un.

what evidence do we have for this?

if one of its corporations is still affiliated with the un, seems like that would be quite the scandal.

Inquisitor

Sorry, Auldsoul

I got lost in the fine details.

So was there a problem with the relationship between the WTS and the UN??

The picture i get now is that you're saying that the WTS merely sent representatives to speak about their organization at UN conferences. That understanding should make them innocent of any accusations of double standards for they are merely giving a witness to the political bodies of this world. Is that what you are saying?

INQ

14

Why so many versions of Genesis 2:19?

by Inquisitor in

big welcome to you, bible scholars!

the new world translation by jws reads at genesis 2:19: "now jehovah god was forming from the ground every wild beast of the field and every flying creature of the heavens, and he began bringing them to the man to see what he would call each one..."

the issue with genesis 2:19 is that, depending on the translation, it presents a contradiction to the order of creation.

Inquisitor

One last question, how does one pronounce " wayyiçer"?

What consonent is "ç" suppose to resemble?

INQ

14

Why so many versions of Genesis 2:19?

by Inquisitor in

big welcome to you, bible scholars!

the new world translation by jws reads at genesis 2:19: "now jehovah god was forming from the ground every wild beast of the field and every flying creature of the heavens, and he began bringing them to the man to see what he would call each one..."

the issue with genesis 2:19 is that, depending on the translation, it presents a contradiction to the order of creation.

Inquisitor

HB, I hadn't quite finished with my post after quoting the Watchtower. For some reason, this latter half got chopped off last night.

The problems I have with accepting the view that God is continually making animals after Adam's creation are:

1) What is the original verb and tense of Gen 2:19? From what Narkissos has said, the tense should be consecutive imperfect.

"consecutive" i.e. subsequent to Adam's creation

"imperfect" i.e. God had NOT created the animals in Genesis 2:19 BEFORE Adam. That verse meant to say the creation of flying creatures occurred after Adam.

Even if one is not ready to accept this is true, there is still a need to explain why there is such a variation in the tense at Genesis 2:19. <nudge, nudge, Shining One>

2) If indeed the creation of these animals need not end in the specific Day of Creation, what is the point of dividing the creative period into 7 Days? Since the making of things do not end in their respective Days, why didn't God just say he made everything in a SINGLE DAY of creation? What is the point of the 7 Days of Creation?

If the creative process is not limited to the Day it begins, why does Genesis 1 record that God had reflected on His handiwork at the end of each Day and "saw that it was good"?

3) The Genesis 1 account does not narrate in such a way as to suggest that the creative work of each day overlaps or extends into other Days of Creation. In fact the account seems to suggest that each creative work is limited to its own day. So the suggestion of a "continual creative process", while appealing to the problem of Genesis 2:19, does not fit well with Genesis 1.

INQ

14

Why so many versions of Genesis 2:19?

by Inquisitor in

big welcome to you, bible scholars!

the new world translation by jws reads at genesis 2:19: "now jehovah god was forming from the ground every wild beast of the field and every flying creature of the heavens, and he began bringing them to the man to see what he would call each one..."

the issue with genesis 2:19 is that, depending on the translation, it presents a contradiction to the order of creation.

Inquisitor

Many thanks again, Narkissos. I'll look it up.

Cheers

INQ

14

Why so many versions of Genesis 2:19?

by Inquisitor in

big welcome to you, bible scholars!

the new world translation by jws reads at genesis 2:19: "now jehovah god was forming from the ground every wild beast of the field and every flying creature of the heavens, and he began bringing them to the man to see what he would call each one..."

the issue with genesis 2:19 is that, depending on the translation, it presents a contradiction to the order of creation.

Inquisitor

14

Why so many versions of Genesis 2:19?

by Inquisitor in

big welcome to you, bible scholars!

the new world translation by jws reads at genesis 2:19: "now jehovah god was forming from the ground every wild beast of the field and every flying creature of the heavens, and he began bringing them to the man to see what he would call each one..."

the issue with genesis 2:19 is that, depending on the translation, it presents a contradiction to the order of creation.

Inquisitor

Hi HB

...anybody with a knowledge of geology knows that dry land is still being created every day in the 21st century. Iceland is growing bigger by 10 cm every year, and in millions of years will be a huge continent.

I don't know much about geology, but I was given the impression that in several parts of the world, land is actually shrinking due to the global-warming-induced rise in sea level. Are you certain the reverse is happening in Iceland?

I think that Gen 2 is simply saying that God continued to create new animals even after man came to exist.

That was precisely the understanding put forward by the WTS in 1991:

*** g91 6/8 p. 14 Did Each Creative Day Always Finish What It Started? ***
Genesis 2:19 seems to point to progressive creation involving flying creatures , for it states: “ Yahweh God continued to form from the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds [“every flying creature,” NW] of the heavens and to bring them to the man to see what he would call them. ”—

Thus the Bible record of Genesis chapter 1 indicates that broad categories of plant and animal life began to be created by God when the earth had been brought to a stage of development suitable for a given type of creature life. The filling of these broad categories with many individual kinds of life, such as “flying creatures,” was a progressive, ongoing activity of God. This ongoing divine activity may have continued beyond the end of the creative day on which it commenced.

14

Why so many versions of Genesis 2:19?

by Inquisitor in

big welcome to you, bible scholars!

the new world translation by jws reads at genesis 2:19: "now jehovah god was forming from the ground every wild beast of the field and every flying creature of the heavens, and he began bringing them to the man to see what he would call each one..."

the issue with genesis 2:19 is that, depending on the translation, it presents a contradiction to the order of creation.

Inquisitor

WHOA! Hail Narkissos!

Thanks for that concise response.

Would you mind recommending me some citable reference for the usage of "wayyiçer" in Genesis 2:19? I want to create an impenetrable argument on this scriptural contradiction.

Cheers, buddy! INQ

14

Why so many versions of Genesis 2:19?

by Inquisitor in

big welcome to you, bible scholars!

the new world translation by jws reads at genesis 2:19: "now jehovah god was forming from the ground every wild beast of the field and every flying creature of the heavens, and he began bringing them to the man to see what he would call each one..."

the issue with genesis 2:19 is that, depending on the translation, it presents a contradiction to the order of creation.

Inquisitor

Hello everybody! Big welcome to you, Bible scholars!

The New World Translation by JWs reads at Genesis 2:19: "Now Jehovah God was forming from the ground every wild beast of the field and every flying creature of the heavens, and he began bringing them to the man to see what he would call each one..."

The issue with Genesis 2:19 is that, depending on the translation, it presents a contradiction to the order of creation. Specifically, 2:19 seems to contradict the account in Genesis 1:20-23. In Genesis 1, the flying creatures were made on the 5th DAY but Genesis 2 seems to imply that these same creatures were created on the 6th DAY, after Adam, before Eve! Whether or not that contradiction is apparent depends on which translation you use.

It is conceivable to wiggle out of the complication when translators render Genesis 2:19 in the following way:

"Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them" - New International Version (NIV)

"The Lord God had formed all of the wild animals. He had also formed all of the birds of the air. He had made all of them out of the ground. He brought them to the man to see what names he would give them." - New International Reader's Version

Note how this translation (New International Reader's) emphasized the past perfect tense in this scripture, almost as if they were paranoid that someone might pick up on the complication.

"And out of the ground Jehovah Elohim had formed every animal of the field and all fowl of the heavens, and brought [them] to Man, to see what he would call them" - Darby Translation

"Now Jehovah God was forming from the ground every wild beast of the field and every flying creature of the heavens, and he began bringing them to the man to see what he would call each one..." -NWT

But there are translations that seem oblivious to the problem. These latter ones allow for the understanding that the flying creatures were created right after Adam:

"Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them" - New King James Version

"And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air, and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them" - 21st Century King James Version

"And out of the ground Jehovah God formed every beast of the field, and every bird of the heavens; and brought them unto the man to see what he would call them" - American Standard Version

"So the LORD God formed from the soil every kind of animal and bird. He brought them to Adam [ a ] to see what he would call them" - New Living Translation

So my questions are:

Which is the correct renderring of Genesis 2:19? How do translations such as the NIV justify the way they employ a past perfect tense? Was the use of such a tense done SOLELY because they were aware that any other tense would lead to a contradiction with Genesis 1? Is this an example of a dishonest translation?

What was the original Hebrew verb and tense used at Genesis 2:19?

Thanks for being this interested in my post! lol

Regards

INQ