Posts by MuadDib

3

Progress...?

by MuadDib in

jw
friends

well, if my family celebrated christmas i would have ruined it for them this year.

after working most of the 24th i went over to my parents' house for dinner and was unable to escape my mother's interrogation as to why i haven't been at meetings or in service for three months.

this turned into an hours-long conversation with my parents in which i essentially announced my decision to leave the jws.

Well, if my family celebrated Christmas I would have ruined it for them this year. After working most of the 24th I went over to my parents' house for dinner and was unable to escape my mother's interrogation as to why I haven't been at meetings or in service for three months. This turned into an hours-long conversation with my parents in which I essentially announced my decision to leave the JWs. For a while I dodged around the question of what my specific concerns were, but they were insistent so I mentioned something about recent archaeological work in Israel proving that the kingdoms of David and Solomon as described in the Bible never existed, and that the entire region probably only supported a few thousand people and so the huge armies mentioned in the Bible could never have been assembled. I knew this went over my mom's head a little, but my dad is better educated in that area and I think he knew the game was up after that, though I made oblique references to 607 BCE, the implausibility of the Deluge, and some other stuff too. We had a somewhat tearful parting and each of them subsequently wrote me a letter expressing their reaction (disappointment, of course, but also a refreshing willingness to accomodate my position, thank God).

It wasn't as bad as I expected actually, and I'm going to talk it over with my dad some more and cover some further, more specific questions. I'm keen to get his opinion in more detail because he told me over the course of our conversation that he too would be a liberal, secular humanist like I am if he wasn't a JW. I of course have to tell him that I don't think I can ever make the kind of reconciliation between the two that he seems to have. An odd situation, for sure.

Now what's on my mind is what to say to the elders when I get the inevitable shepherding call (one of them called me the other day but I didn't bother picking up). I don't care at all what they think about anything except insofar as it affects my family - to have a DA or DF announcement read out from the platform would be an entirely destructive experience for them given the viciously homogenous hive dynamic that dominates the social structure of the JWs, so I do want to avoid that if at all possible.

Thoughts? Comments? I should maybe add that I feel like a massive weight has come off my shoulders after finally having a conversation I've been planning for years. It's almost like I actually physically breathe easier and feel better. My finances and education are still in pretty dire straits but the stress is so vastly eased that it's as though I can handle life much more easily. Feels nice.

62

Beards are evil, but do you know why?

by free2beme in

jw
friends

as a witness, i knew several men who attempted to grow beards.

when they did, and attended meetings, it did not take long to be talked to by elders and told, "as spiritual men, they should not display an outward form of rebellion.

" why was this a form of rebellion?

MuadDib

This issue is actually what I think started my long fade out from the JWs. When I was I think sixteen or seventeen I couldn't fill in a beard all the way, but I did produce a sweet pair of full-length sideburns, which the ladies loved but the elders, I was surprised to find, did not. The arguments they presented were completely spurious to me - wasn't your heart condition more important than the way you looked? By their logic Jesus would have shunned lepers instead of healing them. I hung onto my burns anyway until getting baptized, when I got rid of them to qualify (stupid stupid stupid). Then a couple of years later I went on a trip abroad and grew a goatee while away. I was informed on my return that I could no longer give talks or read the Watchtower at meetings if I retained it, and again I was bemused by the sheer superficialiy of such an inane and prejudiced opinion; to my slightly more educated mind was recalled the image of the young recruits being shaved bald by military barbers in Gwynne Dyer's documentary on Marine boot camp, and the principle of aesthetic monotony as a vehicle for the repression of individualist tendencies. But by this time my doubts about the religion were deep enough that I rather looked forward to being relieved of my theocratic responsibilities, so it was all good.

I then grew my sideburns out again before filling the whole thing in last summer, and I daresay I've rather enjoyed it. It's certainly earned me a lot more female attention than my clean-shaven visage, for some reason. I kept my beard until three days ago, when I shaved it into a primo Vandyke for New Year's. Now I think I'll drop down to my sideburns again. Facial hair is fun!

16

Post questions a study should ask before joining the Org.

by JH in

jw
friends

.

what questions should a study ask before joining the jw org?

MuadDib

After the Deluge, how did the blind marsupial mole get from Turkey to Australia?

21

3 Books - Bible Unearthed, 101 Myths of the Bible, and Early History of God

by VM44 in

three books that i hope to read soon.

the bible unearthed: archaeology's new vision of ancient israel and the origin of its sacred texts (paperback).

by neil asher silberman (author), israel finkelstein ($11.20).

MuadDib

The Bible Unearthed is brilliant stuff - exactly what history and archaeology should be. But the book that really got me into questioning the historicity of the Bible was Egypt, Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times, by Donald B. Redford. It's a little older - 1992 I think - but it's just as solid and unshakeable in its conclusions.

52

How would JWs run a country if they had one?

by Spectrum in

jw
friends

can anybody imagine what it would be like to live in a country run by jws?

what would they call it?

what laws would they have?

MuadDib

My dad actually has a copy of The Orwellian World of Jehovah's Witnesses, as well as some other fairly subversive literature, all of which I've gone through when nobody else was around. What he's doing with it I don't know, but some of it is really eye-opening.

26

Another experience story about leaving the society

by enderby in

i was raised a dub, though not born one.

my mother had told the woman her story about studying in the 70's and that she believed the dubs were on to something but just didn't really care.

what i need are some dub friends.

MuadDib

Great story, man - well presented and actually very similar to my own. For me it wasn't the methodological shortcomings of the literature so much as the sheer factual inaccuracy presented therein that prompted me to leave. I've always loved history and was of course taught that the Bible is history, word-for-word, so of course I was shocked when I took ancient history courses and discovered that there is no archaeological evidence for the Exodus or the establishment of Israel as outlined in the Bible, that there is no evidence whatsoever for a worldwide Deluge, that most of Genesis betrays heavy cultural influence from ancient near eastern mythologies, that the Prophetic books of the Bible are dated much, much later than the Witnesses say they are, that humanity is eons older than six thousand years, the 607/586 thing, and so on. I spoke to my dad about it - never let on how much I was learning, though - and he pointed me to the Aid to Bible Understanding, which is of course chock-full of crap that nobody could buy into if they knew the other side. So there it was.

I would like to know more about the reaction you got from the Elders when you showed them your information. I have plenty to give them if they want to see it, but others on this board have warned me that presenting them with such evidence is likely to get me DFd and I don't want that, for the sake of my family.

27

what is a born again christina?

by tetrapod.sapien in

jw
friends

well, typically, a born again christina is a guy who is at the end of his tether, and doesn't give a f*ck about much anymore, and is depressed and cuts himself.

and then one day, on just a typical weekday, he meets a girl named christina, and she is so sweet and she gives him his faith again.

his faith in humanity and the universe.

MuadDib

Funny, I too know a sweet and lovely Christina who makes me feel quite the same way.

4

Trends within the organization

by MuadDib in

jw
friends

a little background before i get to my main thought.

first of all: my dad is a pretty pedantic guy and he likes to keep track of all the stats in the annual statistical summary of the society - numbers in different countries, which countries grow and which shrink, that sort of thing.

he got me into it too, a few years ago, and i've noticed (as i'm sure many of you have) the general downward trend in membership in the western world - north america and europe - and the complimentary growth in the third world - especially africa.

MuadDib

There's a black guy? Hmm, don't remember that. And you'll have to define "quite young" for me, as I don't think any of the members were under 50, although I suppose I might be wrong about that too.

Good point about the internet too. I suppose growth will slow the more educated and informed people become, the standards for such things being lower in the Third World than over here. Here's hoping anyway.

40

Looking for some advice

by MuadDib in

jw
friends

i'm a young man raised in the jws, been meaning to get the hell out of dodge for a few years now (basically ever since starting a history degree and learning why the jw conception of history, science, and indeed of reality is so utterly nonsensical, in addition to having discovered girls and fun).

i have no qualms about leaving the organization, i don't care what the elders or anyone else think about my decision - with the exception of my family.

i love my family deeply and i know that my decision will really hurt them, especially my mother (a full-time pioneer), and this is making me hesitate to do what i know needs to be done in addition to causing me a lot of worry and stress.

MuadDib

Damn, I hadn't thought of that. What would be something for me to say to them then? I don't think they'd be satisfied if I told them I just wasn't feeling it anymore.

I'm thinking more and more about a DA letter, which was a totally unfamiliar concept to me until I read a few threads about it here. If I simply requested not to be known as a JW anymore, and explained my reasons in a letter, wouldn't that do the trick? I'd still get an announcement, but as long as it reflected on myself and not on my parents I think I'd be alright with it.

On another note - skipped both days of the circuit assembly. Score!

4

I did a search on JWs and...

by Finally-Free in

jw
friends

i found this on the cia site.

the jws are mentioned in the last paragraph.

anyone know if there's any truth to this?.

MuadDib

I remember hearing some time ago about KGB men who came out of the woodwork when the USSR collapsed. Apparently the KGB had infiltrated the JWs in West Germany and some other European places, and their moles had risen to positions of relative importance - COs and prominent Elders, with wives and children who had no idea daddy worked for the Commies. It only makes sense for the Soviets to consider that the West might do the same to them and plant agents in an organization full of well-meaning dimwits. I didn't think of it at the time, but it's pretty funny now to consider that Jehovah's active spirit couldn't get around the KGB's forged paperwork division.