Joel,
I've known you for nearly five years now. Isn't that amazing how it's been that long! You're a tough dude, I know you'll be fine. I will stay in touch. :) I am your friend.
Posts by Cygnus
-
37Last Post
by joelbear ini love so many of you so very much.
what wonderful people there are here and how i have rejoiced in our spirits joining.. i have, as i said, given up.
i am disconnecting from this board and from a number of other things in my life.. i am staying connected to mitch.
-
-
-
17
New Book from Greg Stafford Oct.1, 2001
by stevieb1 inisbn: 0-9659814-2-8. release/shipping date: october 1, 2001. pages: 160, paperback.
table of contents.
first dissertation - prophets and prophecy.
-
-
Cygnus
: Are you sure you haven't read it yet - that sounded like a review <g>.
Nope. I just know the dude fairly well.
-
536
LET'S MAKE A LITTLE WAGER
by You Know inperhaps you recall the instance in the bible where samson made a wager with the philistines that they couldnt guess his riddle.
as it turned out they wheedled the answer out of him by his fiancee, but the point is that they had a wager.
since the underlying assumption of the apostasy is that we are not living in the last days of this system of things, and that this world is not facing anything remotely like the biblical apocalypse, at least not any time soon, in the spirit of such antagonism, i would like to propose a similar wager.
-
-
Cygnus
: That is a fact that will become horrifyingly apparent in the days and weeks ahead.
..... said You Know, in September, 1998.... December, 1999.... and so on.....
What YK says generally makes some sense. Expecting an invisible man in the sky to come around to fix things makes very little sense. We're on our own. And we'll do just fine.
-
17
New Book from Greg Stafford Oct.1, 2001
by stevieb1 inisbn: 0-9659814-2-8. release/shipping date: october 1, 2001. pages: 160, paperback.
table of contents.
first dissertation - prophets and prophecy.
-
-
Cygnus
In his first book (2nd edition), Greg made it a point to only deal with whole blood. He didn't touch the component/fraction issue, or why JWs no longer believe that the holy scriptures require the congregation to disfellowship a person who submits to a transfusion.
Apparently he feels that the issue needs further clarification. Maybe he will pick on some ignorant folks who have misconstrued the doctrine. Greg wouldn't take AJWRB or Lee Elder on. He knows he'd lose, badly.
-
12
Watchtower "drama" last Sunday.
by CornerStone ini originaily said to myself that i was not going to post anything about last sundays "drama" at the dc because i did not want to stir up trouble.
but after reading about the watchtowers' less than charitable attitude toward their nyc neighbors i had a change of heart.. i sat there that morning with my wife and relatives, my eyes heavy from lack of sleep, children on either side of me already in dream land.
the drama was an old favorite; moses and korah.
-
-
Cygnus
: Many of those people there, who call themselves Christians, were HAPPY at the notion of people loosing their lives!
: The lesson was CONTROL through FEAR.
I hear this a lot. JESUS would never have said what the Watchtower says! The Watchtower is so inconsistent!
Well, actually, Jesus did say some unpleasantries, and had some inconsistent behavior. He said that if your eye makes you stumble (i.e., keep you from following me), rip it out, for it is better to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven with one eye than to go into fiery Gehenna with both. Jesus said that cramped and narrow is the road to life, and few are finding it, but many go off into the broad and spacious road to destruction. Jesus said that no one could be his follower unless he picks up his own torture instrument and hates his own soul. Indeed, he must hate his brother and sister and father and mother before he could be a disciple. Jesus called one of his best friends a "satan." He said that he who is not for us is against us. He told his disciples to get a couple of swords, then when someone used one to defend his Master, Jesus got all upset. He treated Pilate as if he were some sort of complete idiot ("you yourself said it", mockingly).
Paul said and did some nasty things, too. In Acts 13 someone goes to engage Paul in a debate about Christianity and Paul, enraged, invokes the power of the Lord so as to blind the man. In 2 Thessalonians chapter 1, Paul greedily and vengefully calls upon the fiery destruction of all who "do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus."
Christianity has always been about Us vs. Them. Who lives and who dies. I'm not saying that that's wrong. I am saying that criticising the Watchtower while saying that JESUS was better than that is probably not accurate.
-
11
Another PR Screwup
by messenger inwell it appears watchtower just blinked...... again.
on 9-11-01 the official press release was criticized on many levels.
it appears criticism came from several sources as the 9-16-01 version of the 9-11-01 press release had seven changes from the original.
-
-
Cygnus
Thanks, messenger.
I sure am glad I don't have the job of writing press releases for the Watchtower.
-
17
New Book from Greg Stafford Oct.1, 2001
by stevieb1 inisbn: 0-9659814-2-8. release/shipping date: october 1, 2001. pages: 160, paperback.
table of contents.
first dissertation - prophets and prophecy.
-
-
Cygnus
Greg's previous book was written mainly as reponses to evangelical Witness critics such as Rhodes ("Reasoning From the Scriptures With JWs"), Bowman ("Understanding JWs") and the like. The 2nd edition, like the first, dealt mainly with issues related to trinitarianism, the NWT, and arguments over which scholar said what and who is mispresenting whom. Greg also included some words on Fred Franz, 1975, and blood.
I was having several private discussions with Greg and a few of his friends a few years ago and they encouraged me to get the book, since at that time I was rather anti-JW, always criticizing JWs, and using many arguments I learned in those evangelical anti-JW books. Greg's book did some to reverse my attitude, albeit not completely. However, Greg makes some very good points about certain texts like John 8:58 which are scholarly and sensible, as opposed to the broad, sweeping criticisms of fundies.
The thing I appreciated most about Greg's book was not so much the information as the style in which he presented it. True, the book sort of lumbered along, but that was not so much Greg's fault as simply the massive amount of detail he put into it, and of course that is also the very nature of a scholarly presentation. What I mean by saying I appreciated Greg's style is that he resisted the tendency to be extremely dogmatic, or to take jabs at people, like the Watchtower does (and certainly did if you read articles from the 50s and 60s written in response to criticism).
Regarding the new book, I have not had a chance to talk to Greg about it. I haven't spoken much to him since I was DF'd last year. We exchanged a few emails after that event, however, that isn't why I've lost contact with him. The main reason is that I do not spend any time on AOL any longer, and that's primarily where I would catch up with him. So I don't know much about this new book. However, I have a good feeling about what I'm going to read.
The first dissertation is going to define the word prophet as a biblical term, explain how JWs use the term, consider the comparisons to the JW anointed class and prophets such as Ezekiel and Jeremiah, and deal with that 1972 Watchtower which claims JWs to be prophets. Greg will find lots of Watchtower quotes which reveal the WTS' admissions of fallibility and so forth, to prove that JWs do not claim to be inspired prophets. He will also deal with Maria Russell's claim that Chuck T. was "that servant," the Finished Mystery and 1922 Watchtowers will call him "that servant," and Russell's private claim to have been "that servant." I couldn't care less about JWs as prophets, but I am interested to see how Greg answers critics about Russell having been clearly labeled "that servant" by the IBS community.
The second dissertation is going to be a response to COJ's "Gentile Times" book. COJ gave a history of the adventist movement from which Russell got his chronological ideas. It appears that Greg will do the same, probably with a Watchtower-induced slant ("Earnest students of the Bible sincerely attempted to calculate..."). Greg will deal with statements such as "there is no validity to assign times as years" or the criticism about the 360 day lunar year being prophetically significant. He will most likely refer to some of Rolf Furuli's material regarding 607 BCE. He will deal with the 20-year gap problem, missing tablets, Ptolemy, Nabonidus, VAT-4976 and so forth. I guess that only 4 or 5 pages will be dedicated to 607, but they will perhaps include the most powerful language of the entire book (judging from the title of the section, questioning whether the Gentile Times needs reconsidering at all). I think it is likely that Greg will admit that 1975 was promoted by COs and others, verbally, but he will deny that the Watchtower ever officially printed that 1975 would be "it" and that the WT has always maintained a sense of urgency about the times we live in. He already dealt with 1975 in his previous book, so I don't expect much new material here. As far as the last days, he will likely deal with the common belief that the last days started in 33 CE and continue to today, instead of starting and ending in the first century and jump-starting again in 1914 (or thereabouts). I doubt greatly that he will respond to COJ's book or other non-religious essays that attempt to show that our times are not biblically significant (but he might, and that would be welcome).
The third dissertation is going to explain why God reveals truths and interpretations progressively, it will discuss Trinity issues (!), it will try to explain _why_ JWs believe what they believe about the relationship between Christ and God and about the usage of the name Jehovah, and why criticisms against JWs are unwarranted. It will talk about JW neutrality, voting, and common worldly celebrations such as holidays, birthdays, maybe even school sports and proms. It will make the presentation that Witnesses can decide for themselves whether or not to participate in such things. You'll see the word "some" or "many" quite often, indicating that not "all" JWs must exercise their conscience in only one way. Of course, it is my belief that since Greg lives in NoCal, a very liberal JW area, that he is not personally familiar or experienced with how things are done in areas such as my own, where you are almost literally hunted down by elders for the smallest of infractions.
Greg will spend a lot of time on blood. He will make every effort to support the Society's notion of a governing body in Jerusalem that produced a universal decree against taking in blood. He will probably not mention Ray Franz by name, but he is going to try and tear apart Ray's analysis of Acts 15. He will call it unreasonable to suggest that the decree was merely a suggestion to the Gentiles, or a cause to keep peace between the races, in light of the holy spirit's involvement in the process. He will probably delve into the fractions issue only briefly, probably to suggest that the medical community recognizes four "main components" of blood, and blood is blood by means of having one of those four, it could not be otherwise. However, the proteins and minerals and so forth that make up those components are not an issue since they are not integral parts of "blood." Something along those lines. I do not know how or whether he will attempt to discuss the hemoglobin and Hemopure situation.
Since the book is only 160 pages, and many of us are familiar with how long-winded Greg can be (hehehe, sorry Greg, but you know it's true), I think this will be an easy read for most, and it might just be another step towards the mainstreaming of Witness culture as instead of focusing on Jesus issues, Greg is taking on life issues, which is evidently what most of us on this board care more about.
-
74
In the big scheme of things, Jesus'....
by SixofNine in...suffering was not so bad.
his "perfection" and understanding of the situation would certainly have mitigated his suffering.. his death was not really death, not in any meaningful sense.
it was a 15 second nap, using bible reasoning.
-
-
Cygnus
Cygnus the Sick? LOL
Many of you need to see the movie "The Last Temptation of Christ." Judas didn't want to betray Jesus. Jesus consoled him when Judas said, 'I don't want to do it.'
I understand the romance of Jesus' Passion. It makes for a great story. One of the greatest stories ever, in fact. One thing I can buy from Trinity believers is that the gospels were written in a way to teach the relationship between God and man. When Jesus prayed, acted in certain ways, he was demonstrating how a human being should have faith in God. That's great. Except that, if I had penned the New Testament, I would have had Jesus hanging Satan on a cross, not the other way around.
-
74
In the big scheme of things, Jesus'....
by SixofNine in...suffering was not so bad.
his "perfection" and understanding of the situation would certainly have mitigated his suffering.. his death was not really death, not in any meaningful sense.
it was a 15 second nap, using bible reasoning.
-
-
Cygnus
Imagine being forced against your will to betray your Master because it was supposedly "prophecied" in your holy book. Imagine that your Master *requires* your involvement, and that your reward for faithfully carrying our your commission ends you up in Gehenna for eternity.
Fuck Jesus and his "way" to life everlasting. I say we should all worship Judas who made the ultimate sacrifice.
-
36
Watchtower Exploitation Begins!
by metatron inover the weekend, various publishers/congregations were.
instructed to go out in service for a "special work".. some congregations received letters from circuit overseers.
emphasizing immediate use of old awake magazines with articles.
-
-
Cygnus
: The only religion that talks about a material paradise on Earth is JW's.
Totally not true.