As I have progressed into adulthood, I have learned to say, "this scholar says this" or "such-and-such proposes that" instead of being dogmatic one way or the other. I'm too tired and sick to debate, and if young witnesses say "my parents dont make me go to meetings or not celebrate christmas, i do it cause i love god", who am I to argue with them? AlanF proved long ago that speaking with Awake! cheif editor and "Creation" book author Harry Peloyan is a waste of time. The study of Jehovah's Witnessism and Creationism occassionally interests me because it's fun to kill a few hours here and there with educated friends who provide fertile grounds for stimulating conversation. Otherwise, the great congregator once purportedly said: "To the making of books there is no end." I found more truth in B,B. King's autobiography which I just completed than any book seeking to prove or disprove either model of our existence.
Posts by Cygnus
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15New Book Exposing "Intelligent Design"
by AlanF ini thought some people would be interested in this, since the watchtower society has been gradually adopting (but not acknowledging the source) id-ish ideas for about a decade.. there's a new book out called creationism's trojan horse: the wedge of intelligent design (barbara forrest & paul r. gross, oxford university press, 2004).
it shows very clearly that so-called intelligent design (id) is nothing more than standard creationism masquerading as something new.
id is really just a jazzed up version of william paley's "watchmaker" argument, which in turn is a jazzed up version of the argument from ignorance -- "i can't imagine how that happened, so it didn't".
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How are your marriages fairing after leaving?
by 24k injust a little bit about myself before you answer:
i was raised a jehovah's witness by my mother, who got "the truth" by studying with inlaws who were already members.
my father had been disfellewshipped for joining the army a few years before i was born, and has nevered returned to the organization.
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Cygnus
You would also be surprised at the divorce rate amongst contemporary JW marriages. In my own knowledge, app. 12 out of 15 JW marriages around the time of mine (say 1988-1994) have ended in divorce for one reason or another.
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Jay Dubs and the Illuminati?
by Apathy ini've seen a few things here and there that seem to connect the two, which i find.. very disconcerting.
for those who don't know, the illuminati, if they exist (which is highly questionable), are a secret organization behind a lot of world events and politics.
supposedly, they run everything behind the scene, like the wizard of oz or something.
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Cygnus
Watch out for what you read about JWs and the Watchtower online. Be discerning. I think if they had any connections with Mormons, or Freemasonry, or the so-called Illuminati, Ray Franz would have a thing or two to say and to me his silence speaks volumes.
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15
New Book Exposing "Intelligent Design"
by AlanF ini thought some people would be interested in this, since the watchtower society has been gradually adopting (but not acknowledging the source) id-ish ideas for about a decade.. there's a new book out called creationism's trojan horse: the wedge of intelligent design (barbara forrest & paul r. gross, oxford university press, 2004).
it shows very clearly that so-called intelligent design (id) is nothing more than standard creationism masquerading as something new.
id is really just a jazzed up version of william paley's "watchmaker" argument, which in turn is a jazzed up version of the argument from ignorance -- "i can't imagine how that happened, so it didn't".
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Cygnus
Alan I appreciate your many time restraints, work and family responsibilities. I would love for you to take an afternoon and give considerble thought to the paper I URLed in my post and get back to me either on the board or personally. BTW thank you for the book recommendation. Besides my intenet reading I clear 5 books a week. I am suffering from bilateral radial palsy and am pretty much incapacitated.
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Creationist Answer Please
by skyman inyesterday there was a post that made me think.
i have a question for you.
i think creationist are ruled by emotion and not by provable facts.
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Cygnus
"[In a post-Darwinian utopia,] our own 'ordinary' consciousness may be unmasked as a shallow and uninteresting vehicle of malaise whose properties we were physiologically incapable of recognising 'from the inside'. At present, however, we lack the neural substrates of a capacity to set archaic consciousness in a pre- and post-Darwinian context. Or as Einstein says: 'What does the fish know of the sea in which it swims?'
Physical science, the scientific rationalist may freely go on to admit, has not yet definitively settled on the ultimate ontological furniture of the universe. There is plenty of theoretical and experimental work to be done investigating whether its ontological primitives are particles, fields, probability waves, loops, superstrings or whatever. The relationships between these primitives still tantalisingly awaits a complete and unified mathematical description as well. But whatever really exists e.g. macroscopic objects, itself supervenes on mind-independent configurations of these ontologically basic primitive entities, events or properties. Values, on the other hand, are merely mind-dependent subjective fictions. We don't read them off the world, but project them on to it."
http://www.hedweb.com/hedethic/hedon2.htm
Perhaps this (values and ethical concerns) is what our greatest expenditure of energy ought to be invested towards...
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How are your marriages fairing after leaving?
by 24k injust a little bit about myself before you answer:
i was raised a jehovah's witness by my mother, who got "the truth" by studying with inlaws who were already members.
my father had been disfellewshipped for joining the army a few years before i was born, and has nevered returned to the organization.
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Cygnus
I was born and raised a JW. I too married an extremely gorgeous JW girl when I was 19. I quit the JWs at 25 for essentially the same reasons you did. My wife stayed in the organization. After a few months, on the advice of the brothers and sisters, she separated from me. It hurt, but I got over it. I came to realize we were never really in love in the first place. We were yet another of the horny JW teens getting married because we felt guilty for doing dirty things. So I suggested divorce.
Well, after 4 months of separation she asked me back. I felt sorry for her and took her back. A few years later the elders finally disfellowshipped me, which I told them seemed awfully funny since I wasn't fellowshipping. My marriage continued but I was living a lie. So a little later when I was 30 I left her. Gave her everything and anything she wanted materially. I even lived at my office for 4 months because I gave her the house. Today we actually friends. We see each other casually, help each other out with stuff once in a while. Technically she should have nothing to do with me but she breaks the rules. She was and is a very good person, I just couldn't be married to her.
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The Hedonistic Imperative
by Cygnus inif you aren't afraid of a lot (and i mean a lot) of 10-dollar words, and you're not afraid of the absolute insanity behind this idea, read the articles found here:.
http://www.hedweb.com/hedab.htm.
i would not be surprised if in 20-40 years the watchtower wouldn't latch on to similar ideas.
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Cygnus
EvilForce, thanks for replying, but you really need to read further on. The author is completely against anything smacking of a drug-riddled utopia.
SNG, I understand, I've been reading it for 8 hours and am only halfway through. Fascinating stuff though.
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To all the other atheists/agnostics out there
by robhic inafter you got from behind the barrier that was keeping you from thinking logically and had removed the blinders that prevented you from processing information using common sense rather than the 2000+ year old superstitions of some nomadic goat-herders, did you start to find that religious-centric or god-related statements made you shake your head in incredulity?.
case in point: just yesterday as i watched the 5:00 news, a story came on about a young man who had moved from here to california.
while in california he died but the family was so poor they could not afford to have the body shipped back to new orleans.
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Cygnus
As a nontheist, this thread makes me sad, because my father, who abandoned the JWs 6 years ago, recently urged me to pray to Jehovah for help with my maladies. I wish I could come fully clean with him about my nontheism but it would break his heart, and probably his spirit as well, and I won't do that to him.
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To all the other atheists/agnostics out there
by robhic inafter you got from behind the barrier that was keeping you from thinking logically and had removed the blinders that prevented you from processing information using common sense rather than the 2000+ year old superstitions of some nomadic goat-herders, did you start to find that religious-centric or god-related statements made you shake your head in incredulity?.
case in point: just yesterday as i watched the 5:00 news, a story came on about a young man who had moved from here to california.
while in california he died but the family was so poor they could not afford to have the body shipped back to new orleans.
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Cygnus
I gave up on theism several years ago. Quit the JWs at 25 and Christianity went with the bath water at 27. I'm 33 now (Jesus... I remember JanH turning 30 and thinking he was old). Speaking of Jan, he's probably the man most responsible for my ungodliness.
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The Hedonistic Imperative
by Cygnus inif you aren't afraid of a lot (and i mean a lot) of 10-dollar words, and you're not afraid of the absolute insanity behind this idea, read the articles found here:.
http://www.hedweb.com/hedab.htm.
i would not be surprised if in 20-40 years the watchtower wouldn't latch on to similar ideas.
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Cygnus
If you aren't afraid of a lot (and I mean a LOT) of 10-dollar words, and you're not afraid of the absolute insanity behind this idea, read the articles found here:
http://www.hedweb.com/hedab.htm
I would not be surprised if in 20-40 years the Watchtower wouldn't latch on to similar ideas. After all, the "how" question of Paradise Restored has never really been answered in a scientific manner. They might have something here to integrate into their post-millenial beliefs.
I'd really be interested in what Gedanken and AlanF think.
I won't respond much because I am suffering from bilateral radial palsy and it's a bitch to type but please, anyone's opinions are welcome.