Posts by onacruse

The NIV Study Bible connects Isa. 66:11 w/ 60:16 and comments: "In 60:16 ... Jerusalem was drinking the milk of nations. Here she is the mother..." The Oxford Annotated Bible footnotes: "Restored 'Mother' Jerusalem can provide abundantly for all..." The New Jerusalem Bible cross-references to John 16:20-22, where Jesus predicts essentially the same reversal of fortunes for his disciples.

This is a typical "restoration" prophecy. Depending on your viewpoint, could be interpreted to mean the actual return of literal Israel to an elevated status in the world, or (as SixofNine said) could be taken metaphorically.

BTW: 6/9, how is 7/9 doing these days? :)

Christian love,

Craig

21

To Applaud or Throw Up - Which?

by metatron in

jw
friends

i pointed out the evidence that the society is sneaking away from.

the blood issue to a 'loyal' relative.. she replied "well, that's good then, right?".

sometimes it just takes your breath away!.

onacruse

Hi Waiting!

No surprise that I didn't start reading such non-WTS literature until I started college (1993, 30+ yrs after baptism). Took some elective courses (sociology, philosophy, history) only to satisfy degree requirements (expected nothing but "worldly garbage"), but how my mind was opened!!!! Literally a shocking experience. How little (read nothing) did I know how socially stunted I was/still am.

I am now all the more intrigued by the sociology of religion. Reading and quoting books is not my goal, but e.g. Social Development (L.T. Hobhouse; George Allen & Unwin, 1924, 1966) says "...sociology is not confined to the description of consequences arising from psychological laws. It has to do with the modifications in the minds of men themselves through their contact with each other." (Emphasis added). This very modification (IMHO) is inexorably occuring among JWs, including both their doctrine and governance. It can't be stopped, almost has a life of its own.

So also with Adventists: Seventh-day Adventists Believe...(Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1988), ch 24 (The Second Coming of Christ) does not even mention 1844, except for a small-print dateline (p. 347). As we all know, this date was a cornerstone for their movement, but the "modifications in the minds of men themselves" enabled them both to grow significantly in response to that date, accept/justify decline as that date passed into history, and still maintain a significant (although now relatively stagnant) membership.

For JWs, the "beginning of the end" in 1914 will never go away, but its meaning is being accommodated. Centralization of authority (1938-44) will not be reversed, but it is being modified. Disfellowshipping (1952) and the blood issue (1964) will not be disposed, but individual JWs increasingly apply those doctrines as they see fit for their personal needs. Ups and downs in membership are transient events in reaching an equilibrium amongst these conflicting social forces.

Tired of my soap-box?

Christian love,

Craig

64

Monthly Complaint

by comforter in

jw
friends

the watchtower has said that those who deviate from the faith only seek to pull down and do not try to build up.

they have no positive teachings.

only negative ones.

onacruse

See that you're new to this site, as am I. WELCOME, and hope that you take DEEP into your heart our responses. You have here a chance to benefit from well over 1,000,000 people-yrs worth of cumulative JW experience. Do you have the courage?

Please stay here, read our bio's, EMBRACE THE PAIN that your theology promotes. If you have the courage to do that, you have a chance to survive as a compassionate human.

Best (though limited) Christian hopes for you,

Craig

39

Why do you believe???

by truthseeker1 in

i have a question for everybody.

it has probably been asked before, but i'll ask it again in case anyone changed their minds.... why do/don't you believe in god/god.

what give you faith in things not beheld/makes you not believe?.

onacruse

I believe in God because I have IMO reasons to believe in God. That, by definition, is faith. Those who have no such reasons have, by definition, no such faith. Hebrew amen (w/derivatives), Greek pistos, Latin fidem, German glaube, and (to my knowledge) almost all other languages include this concept of faith/belief. This common linguistic thread suggests that faith is a natural (genetic? deformed?) dimension of our existence (words=concepts=reality [tricyclic permutation expected]). In any case, this does not demand that faith=reality.

I'm an unabashed Christian, and (barring some overwhelming future experience) will remain so till the day I die (transform? disintegrate? phaser'd out of existence?). Can I prove my faith? By definition, NO. Should I expect anyone in this universe (incl a mathematically incomprehensible infinite God) to agree w/me? NO, NO, NO.

Like IW said : We're all in school.

I'm ready for a recess, but School will be in session for very long time :-)

Christian love,

Craig

21

To Applaud or Throw Up - Which?

by metatron in

jw
friends

i pointed out the evidence that the society is sneaking away from.

the blood issue to a 'loyal' relative.. she replied "well, that's good then, right?".

sometimes it just takes your breath away!.

onacruse

I expect that we will see more and more of this secularization of WTS. Why Conservative Churches Are Growing (Dean M. Kelly; Harper & Row, 1972) presents considerable data on several mainstream churches, with in-depth analysis of the Anabaptist movement, the Wesleyan revival, the Mormon migration, and JWs. The titles of ch 6 (Why Not a Strong Ecumenical Religion?) and ch 7 (Dynamics of Diminishing Demand) speak volumes. It is historically demonstrable and sociologically inevitable that as religious (read JW) membership increases, influence over/stimulation of the individuals will diminish even as the core of the "saving remnant" disappears.

My JW relatives have frequently remarked that WTS has changed a lot since "the old days," and the general level of JW enthusiasm has palpably diminished (no more the "automatic" pioneering of teenagers, no more the "compulsive" applause at every assembly talk/new release, no more the cooperation of organized of activities that comes from deep personal commitment). A certain acquiescence (numbness?) paralyzes long-timers, and disillusions new-comers. The hypocrisy and resort to authoritarian knee-jerking is just part of the natural progress of the disease. One comment (from 50 yr JW): "This is just turning into another religion."

The True Believer (Eric Hoffer [my copy on loan]) offers a similar compelling outline of the life and death of a religion in which I spent 40 yrs.

I now no longer hope/pray for such changes, because I am convinced that they will happen of their own accord. Incidentally, I can now keep down my lunch :-)

Looking to a better age,

Craig

35

A Newbie Introduction

by patricia in

jw
friends

i am a "newbie" that has been "lurking" and commenting on a couple of posts over the last six months.

i was somewhat intimidated by some of the comments on the board so i didn't feel comfortable in introducing myself.

since simon seems to be dealing with some of the more "aggressive" posters i felt the time had come to introduce myself.

onacruse

Hi, Patricia! I really like your attitude. I too have struggled with prayer and sharing my faith (almost like learning how to walk again). I feel good about praying for (most of) those from whom I am now cut off, and to talk (without anger) to a few of my neighbors about JWs. Keep on trying, the way will open!

I lurked here for a long time before posting, turned off by the (IMO) insensitive/offensive remarks of a very few. Slowly learning to sift out the garbage, watching how the long-timers identify and squelch those who seem intent on flaming everyone they can. There is way too much good on this forum to ignore.

Christian love back to you!

Craig

36

You gotta LOVE this forum!

by Sirona in

jw
friends

i love this forum.

at the moment, there are lots of people saying bad things about it.

i want to set the record straight.

onacruse

I've been aware of this site for many years (before and after 2nd df'ing). My infrequent lurkings left me feeling that this forum was used primarily by disgruntled ejw's that just wanted to vent spleen against WTS. In retrospect, my reluctance was based in large measure on unwillingness to face the pain that my religion had caused. Like scooter said, the reliving is hard, but good, therapy. I've had some belly-shaking laughs at the flames and razor-sharp debates.

Good to be here!

Craig

99

How could have Rutherford been a 'drunk'?

by wholewheat in

jw
friends

i feel that the apostate's claims that rutherford was a drunk to be far fetched.

on the one hand, they claim that he was so drunk that the brothers at bethel shipped him to san diego to beth sarim, where he stayed drunk out of his mind, then on the other hand, they claimed that he ruled the society with an iron fist, that he was a dictator.

no drunk could have ruled the society like a dictator.

onacruse

Thanks Larc. I will post again, so long as I can find serious threads like this one! Everbody needs to have their fun, and I do get a good laugh from a friendly flame. But I'm seeing that some posters (as Simon reminded) use language, and include some content, that diminish the experience. Guess I'll just have to work through it.

However, I divert from the subject!

99

How could have Rutherford been a 'drunk'?

by wholewheat in

jw
friends

i feel that the apostate's claims that rutherford was a drunk to be far fetched.

on the one hand, they claim that he was so drunk that the brothers at bethel shipped him to san diego to beth sarim, where he stayed drunk out of his mind, then on the other hand, they claimed that he ruled the society with an iron fist, that he was a dictator.

no drunk could have ruled the society like a dictator.

onacruse

Rutherford may well have been a heavy drinker (the evidence I've seen convinces me that he was), and perhaps even an alcoholic (though I don't feel like making that judgement). However, now that he's dead, what's the point? To me the real issue is that alcohol abuse remains a serious problem (as others have posted). When I was at Bethel I worked in the janitorial dept and so had a somewhat unique opportunity to see what the choice of beverage was and how much was consumed. A rather ingenius TX bro I worked with thought that we should recycle the glass/cans. Every week we sent out at least 6 55-gal drums of crushed glass and aluminum, virtually all of it being alcohol containers. Part of the reason for the institution of "floor elders" was to monitor the increasing problems they were having with overdrinking and rowdy behavior.

In the many years since then, several mothers of newer Bethelites asked me things like "Has the drinking back there always been so bad?" and "How can I help my (usually) son to keep it under control?" I really didn't have a good answer, for I knew from personal experience that it was/is cultured by that environment, and the problem continues.

Some years ago I read The Addictive Organization (Harper & Row, 1988). The authors show the remarkable correlation between membership in a highly authoritarian structure and addictive patterns (including alcoholism) frequently manifested by those who are fervent supporters of that structure. The authors present this purely as a sociological study, and only incidently discuss religious groups per se (they never even mention JWs).

I finally had an answer: alcohol is a problem for many JWs precisely because they are JWs! And the tighter they are (in the one sense), the tighter they are likely to get (in the other sense).

My best wishes for those that are caught in this vicious spiral :-(

Craig