Posts by onacruse

17

A Gap In My Knowledge.

by Englishman in

jw
friends

i have a gap in my knowledge re some of the procedures that come into play when someone decides that they simply don't want to be a witness any more.

just to explain:.

in my dub years, there were any number of ex-witnesses around.

onacruse

Val has the bases covered, just to add my personal experiences:

I knew a lot of younger dubs that went inactive, and nothing was ever done to them. For the most part, they just stayed away from the Hall, and we never saw them again. On the rare occasion that they did attend a meeting (usually the Memorial) they were welcomed by most all of us.

It was a different story for older ones who tried to leave, especially if they were brothers who'd been servants and/or had lots of JW family. There was a general compulsion by the elders to make "examples" of such ones. Frequently the families themselves made as much or more of an issue about it than the elders, but in response the elders had to "do their duty." Knowing this, not too many older ones tried to leave, they just "grinned and bore it."

1975 changed things alot. The post-1975 WTS anti-apostate campaigns really aggravated things, and that was when I first remember seeing the witch-hunts. Ray Franz's departure in 1980 was like pouring gasoline on a fire. From then on, even a scent of apostate thinking was aggressively pursued, and for the most part the elders, who were supposed to be "shepherds of the flock," turned into full-time WTS enforcers. Deliberate inactivity was no longer viewed as a simple act of quiet departure; it was peremptorily assumed to indicate apostate thinking, guilty until proven innocent. Many therefore tried to dodge being df'd by da'ing themselves, but then WTS closed that loophole by classifying da'd ones the same as df'd.

With minor variations, that was the tone I saw until I too decided to fade in the late '90's. After about a year, the elders came after me and said my inactivity indicated apostasy, and they would have to df me unless I reassociated. We negotiated that my attending 10 consecutive meetings would show that I was not apostate. After the 10th meeting, they then came after me and said since I was now reactivated, I would have to prove to them that I didn't still secretly harbor any apostate opinions! (Did I walk into that trap, or what??). After almost 2 years and 6 committee meetings, they finally df'd me.

Recent WT articles about apostasy, as well as the August KM insert about treatment of df'd ones, reminds me of the early '80s when I first saw the big shift. I expect that things will only get worse from here; the Panzers are rolling again.

Craig

32

why do people think jesus died on a cross?

by watermelon in

i have always wonderd why so many people think jesus died on a cross.

ive been brought up to beleive that he died on a stake.

where did it come from about the cross?

onacruse

The previous posters have provided plenty of historical and logical evidence to raise serious questions regarding the JW teaching about the stake vs cross.

From a different perspective, I would ask: What difference does it make? The historical Jesus did indeed die, billions of people have believed/believe that, and history has been made. What if some heretofore undiscovered document proved beyond all doubt that Jesus was stoned to death instead of impaled? So what? He still died. The Christian conviction that Jesus died for human sins would remain unchanged.

IMHO, this is the type of doctrinal nit-picking that accomplishes nothing other than to separate people from one another.

Craig

Edited by - onacruse on 3 August 2002 7:9:51

7

Baptism

by joannadandy in

just some thoughts i had...it creeped itself into poem format...i hate when that happens...lol.

there was light on their wings as they stepped into the water.. there was gold on their hands as they pushed me toward the stream.. the thick black of the swirling water went un-noticed except by me.. the thick black smoke they breathed was choking me.. i stepped back afraid.. i stepped back to flee.. they called to me in a siren song that was slightly out of tune.. they pounded words from dusty books into my ears.. the words became pleasurable for a time in the numbness they brought.. there were hundreds all around me.. there was love in their words, and faces filled with indifference.. yet still no wings for me after these long years.. there was gold on their faces, but i saw the red reflected in their eyes.. i sat on the bank and cried gray tears.. the light would never reflect the same.. ashes in my lap,.

dust within the air.. i am made of nothing, .

onacruse

The thrill of the moment seized my soul,

I looked forward to being made whole.

My friends and family glowed with pride,

as I stepped out in confident stride.

My sight was keen and my goal was clear,

I knew where I was going from here.

My baptism was a very spiritual and satisfying experience for me. I refuse to let subsequent developments diminish the thrill and fulfillment I experienced at that moment. It gave me a sense of self-validation and purpose that influences my entire life, even though I never expect to be a JW again.

FWIW,

Craig

10

Dogs returning to its own vomit.

by KKLUV155 in

jw
friends

this is what i was always told of ones coming into the org.

and then leaving again.

as a dog returning to its own vomit.

onacruse

After having been raised (very happily, I might add) as a Witness, I was 1st df'd (for apostasy, 1980) 18 yrs after being baptized. I was reinstated 2 years later, so that I could be with the family and friends I lost (all JWs). I was again df'd 18 yrs later (again, for apostasy, 2000). This time, they will follow me, or they have lost.

Proverbs 26:11 "As a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool repeats his folly." As Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary notes: "As a dog returneth to his vomit, [w]ho being sick with what he has eaten, casts it up again, and afterwards returns unto it and licks it up; [so] a fool returneth to his folly, or "repeats" it...or a wicked man turns to his wickedness, who, having had some qualms upon his conscience for sin, for a while forsakes it; but that fit being over, and he forgetting all his former horror and uneasiness, returns to his old course of life: a wicked man is here compared to a dog, as he is elsewhere for his impudence and voraciousness in sinning; and the filthiness of sin is expressed by the vomit of a dog, than which nothing is more nauseous and loathsome; and the apostasy of the sinner, from an external course of righteousness into open profaneness is signified by the return of this creature to it."

There are non-foolish, non-sinful, non-disgusting, non-profane, non-wicked reasons why someone might go back to being a dub (or any other religion, for that matter), and each person must decide for themselves if those reasons are good and sufficient. If, after such personal consideration, they decide to rejoin, then I suggest that we should not thereby consider them as vomit-eating fools.

IMHO,

Craig

21

I dont trust anyone!

by haujobbz in

jw
friends

.

humans cant be trusted thats my attitude!!!!

i say this because its true, think about it takes years to get to know someone, maybe 10 years later you may say i really trust this person or persons,but all sudden those you thought you could trust do something to hurt you,betrayal,theft,backstabbing,assault,dishonesty,liar,deception,etc.even on here i dont really know any of you, all i do is just type and that suits me, you seem to be people of all walks of life some upset,confused,happy etc.but that doesnt mean what you say in your words reflects the "real you" .whether you belive in god or evolution etc it makes no difference we all have imperfect desires in us and give it the right moment and they may be unleashed,you may think im paranoid but "im not" i just dont have much trust for humans good or bad and i dont even trust myself sometimes.

onacruse

I gotta go with Joanna on this one.

To not trust ANYone else is to deny ourselves participation in the beauty of humanity. It is paranoid and sociopathic.

Sure, there will be those who betray our trust, and we will feel that pain, but that is part of the human experience. The transcendent inspiration of friendship and trust far surpasses the disappointment of betrayal, just as true love leaves memories long after that love fades and dies.

"At the bottom of the heart of every human being from earliest infancy until the tomb, there is something that goes on indomitably expecting, in the teeth of all experience of crimes committed, suffered, and witnessed, that good and not evil will be done to him. It is this above all that is sacred in every human being."
Simone Weil (1909-43), French philosopher, mystic. "Human Personality" (written 1943; published in Selected Essays, ed. by Richard Rees, 1962).

"It is impossible to go through life without trust: that is to be imprisoned in the worst cell of all, oneself."
Graham Greene (1904-91), British novelist. The Ministry of Fear, bk. 1, ch. 3, sct. 2 (1943).

Craig

49

What is a JW childhood like?

by knighthawk1981 in

jw
friends

i was wondering what it is like to experience childhood in the org.

i am an aspiring writer ad the org has always interested me...not in the sense that i'd like to join.

please send me some replies.

onacruse

Another perspective:

I was absolutely, totally and unequivocally sure that I was doing the right thing. No classmate rejection, no "odd-man out," no amount of derision from ANYONE made me feel bad, or even gave me pause. I did field service, meetings, and WTS publications study with unreserved enthusiasm and complete confidence. As an 8-yr old, I preached to adults with the arrogance of youth, and as a teenager I gave talks to the congregation like a little Samuel. I spent my summer vacations studying Rutherford's books as if they were divine revelations, and was a regular pioneer before I graduated from high school. I eschewed a free ride at virtually any university without regret, as I had NO doubt that the world was about to end. Destruction of people around me? No my problem. Holidays, parties, friends? Not time or need. Went to Bethel, and can clearly remember my first night there, laying on a cot, oriented E-W with head toward west, thinking "I have finally reached my goal. Dear Jehovah, please bless my work here."

Then, spent the next 30 years struggling, drinking, doubting, apostasizing.

So, my journey started as PURE HEAVEN, and degraded into SELF-DESTRUCTION. I am only now just beginning to see what I sacrificed. It took me 40 years to get to this point, and I am sure that I will spend at least the next 40 years figuring it out and healing.

Craig

14

New Member / Introduction

by ex_Watchtowerite_hubby in

jw
friends

i am not a current, nor former member of the jw's, but my wife was one for four years.

also, my mom has been one for over 20 years.

i did attend several meetings with her, and prompty fell asleep each time.

onacruse

Robyn, well said, and to that I can only add:

Welcome, hubby!

Craig

69

Who Here Believes in God?

by The_Bad_Seed in

jw
friends

personally, i do not believe god ever has or ever will exist.

i have my reasons -- i guess i could be considered an agnostic, rather than an athiest.

i was curious to see what the larger part of the former borg community believed, now looking from the outside in, rather than the opposite.

onacruse

I do believe that Xander may be the gold medalist!

With that kind of ambivalent answer, I have to suspect that you have been interrogated by several judicial committees.

51

Explain this then

by Legendary U.2.K. in

(quote, messiah christ jesus) - "but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but "my father only" <--that's proof that christ is not god, cause if christ was infact god,'dont you think he would know about the coming of his kingdom, also christ said" my father only" , um he said my father, therefore christ is the son of god, infact !!

!christ prayed to god!!

!<---you cant ignore that.. all this cometh str from the bible, and the bible tongues has/been change, but no the words, everything is true.. so prove me wrong, um you cant, so pay attention....

onacruse

Toe:

1) No, I have never prayed to the holy spirit, because I am not sure that it is a sentient being. There are many sciptures that do personify the hs, but I am not thereby convinced. Doesn't matter to me right now, anyway.

2) The debate should be available online. It will have three parts. I am submitting part 1 this next Monday, strictly in accord with what a typical JW would offer. Ironic that even as I submit those arguments, I also am aware of the most effective counter-arguments. Truly the devil's advocate! Again, doesn't matter to me, because I will still believe in God.

U2K:

You started this thread as (what I assume to be) a serious inquiry. Many of the posters do not agree with me in believing in God, but they are not derisive of my opinion, nor am I of theirs. Why must you be?

Craig

2

coping strategies, adjustments to new experiences?

by Celtic in

jw
friends

today, i've been thinking as deeply as ever, trying to get to grips not just with my own personal experiences, but also gaining more understanding and empathy with the 'group consciousness' struggling, to come to terms with similar life experiences here represented within this community.

(does my ruddy nut in).

wow!!

onacruse

Wow, quite a package of questions!

I am currently struggling with recent disfellowshipping, extended unemployment, and post-traumatic divorce syndrome. May be self-deluded, but I feel absolutely NO sense of inadequacy or low self-esteem. I know why I was df'd, and it wasn't for good cause (the JC chairman later told me and my elder-dad the same). I know why I was laid off, and I was right (my upper management was subsequently laid off for incompetence). I know why I was divorced, and it was her choice, not mine (she was married 2x before, and had a deplorable childhood).

The primary challenge I have had, literally all my life, is socialization. Oh, I can mix it up at a party, or entertain in chat, but most of the time I feel disconnected from the people around me. On the one hand, I feel like I could be a total hermit for the rest of my life. On the other hand, the last few months have revealed to me that I CAN'T live that way and feel fulfilled. A classic catch-22: I know I need the companionship of people, but don't really know how to participate in that companionship. Not even to speak here of friendship.

Participation on this board has given me a tremendous boost, because I am accepted for what I am without judgement or reservation. Very much like the years I spent in AA, just knowing that there are other people like me makes me feel inclined to open up, share from myself and let myself be accepted by them.

A long road ahead! Thanks for your post. It helps me think about the ruts and potholes in that road ahead of me.

Craig