Posts by dozy

15

What happed if two Mormon Elders and two Jehovahs witness meet together?

by Ray in

anybody ?

dozy

I've had occasional chats with the Mormons over the years - they send a new couple of missionaries every year from the USA. (Ironically they used to rent a house from a local brother). They are usually friendly , personable young men , if rather tense and limited - they tend to stick rigidly to their script.

I remember discussing and reading the portions of Isaiah from the King James bible that are quoted word for word in the Book of Mormon (supposedly written hundreds of years previously) and neither of them had ever heard of this discrepancy , couldn't think of any explanation and weren't interested in providing one. When I asked if there was any evidence secularly for the existence of the tribes in the Americas , they seemed completely apathetic. It tends to be quite difficult to get any meaningful discussion based on the bible , as they often admit that they don't really know much about it , and have an easy "get out" if they disagree with any scripture ("how do you know that it has been translated properly"). One Mormon told me that this was the first time he had actually opened a bible for months.

As another poster mentioned , due to the lack of virtually any common ground between JWs and Mormons , usually the topic turns to "field service" style experiences (watch out for the dog at 24 Acacia Avenue etc).

42

Loss of Elders

by metatron in

jw
friends

large numbers of jw congregations are going to be trouble long before they lose their last elder to death or resignation.. most congregations i know have at least one - and often several - elders who can barely function at all, due to illness, old age.

or just plain inability to accomplish anything.

the society seems loathe to remove these men, despite their 'elder in name only'.

dozy

Beards are not looked upon with such disdain in Europe. Basically, the farther north you go, the more accepted they are.

And I'm very far north! Brrrrr!

5

Conservative v Liberal power struggle in JWs

by dozy in

jw
friends

from my reading of ray franz's books , it would seem that there was an underlying conflict in the late 70's , with some members of the gb and associated committees pursuing a more liberal , mainstream agenda.

for example , ray published his 1976 wt article defining "sacred service" as including "good works" such as looking after family members and charitable activities and ed dunlap published the excellent "commentary to the letter of james" (never quoted nowadays by the wts) stressing traditional christian qualities.

both were purged in the late 70's.. is it likely that a similar movement will gain ascendancy or do we assume that the present leadership will continue on the "high control" agenda?

dozy

From my reading of Ray Franz's books , it would seem that there was an underlying conflict in the late 70's , with some members of the GB and associated committees pursuing a more liberal , mainstream agenda. For example , Ray published his 1976 WT article defining "sacred service" as including "good works" such as looking after family members and charitable activities and Ed Dunlap published the excellent "Commentary to the Letter of James" (never quoted nowadays by the WTS) stressing traditional Christian qualities. Both were purged in the late 70's.

Is it likely that a similar movement will gain ascendancy or do we assume that the present leadership will continue on the "high control" agenda?

27

Is this the ultimate question to ask a JW?

by jwfacts in

people always ask what subject they should raise with their jw relatives.

the problem is, what is important to you is often of no consequence to me.

no one knows what will be the issue to change a relatives mind.

dozy

Re: Is this the ultimate question to ask a JW?

No - it doesn't work. I would have responded by turning up Dan 12:4 "As for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about; and the [true] knowledge will become abundant." and applying it to Pauls words when he talked about "one faith , one baptism" and Jesus words in Matt 7 about a "narrow road".

As another poster has said , there isn't a "killer question" to ask JWs - nobody asked me one in over 30 years of field service. The average JW's devotion is based on a complex blend of association , family ties , loyalty , a genuine love for God and the bible and an earnest desire to see better times ahead , compounded by a clever and manipulative WTS and allied to a (perceived) complete lack of any viable alternative form of worship.

JWs are far more likely to leave because of unrest in their own congregation than a purely academic deconstruction of whether God has adopted an organisation and whether or not the WTS measures up to such a concept.

42

Loss of Elders

by metatron in

jw
friends

large numbers of jw congregations are going to be trouble long before they lose their last elder to death or resignation.. most congregations i know have at least one - and often several - elders who can barely function at all, due to illness, old age.

or just plain inability to accomplish anything.

the society seems loathe to remove these men, despite their 'elder in name only'.

dozy

Just my perspective as an active elder...

When I attended the elders school in November , the average age must have been 55 , including numerous very old brothers. There were some younger elders who did the bulk of the teaching parts. Notably , there were very few "young" (30 something) elders - and a couple of them had "goatee" beards , so I guess the appointment criteria has been relaxed!

One of my fellow elders gave a talk at the MS KM school on the Sunday and he was saddened that most of the servants were the kindly , elderly type with very few who would be likely to be potential elder material. To make matters worse , in the UK , the WTS is expanding in Bethel and is cherry picking many of the young , enthusiastic brothers without any thought of the effect on their home congregations.

The CO is desperate to appoint any brothers , regardless of qualifications. A couple of years ago , the body was split 50-50 on appointing a certain brother as a MS (I was strongly against an appointment) and the CO forced it through - we are now left with a brother as a MS who hardly attends meetings , has no responsibilities whatsoever and is a MS in name only.

Without giving too many details that would identify my congregation , the elders carry out virtually all the functions that normally MS would have carried out , due to a combination of lack of manpower and lack of competence from our servants (none of whom would be given a recommendation if they moved away from here.)

Just my 2p.

74

Please don't take offence at this ...

by Joe Grundy in

jw
friends

i'm not a jw, never have been, and in no danger of becoming one.. having read several of the wt mags and publications (and many more extracts on this and other sites) they come across to me as being very patronising in tone and full of pseudo-scholarship, misquoted (or unnamed) sources, references taken out of context, mis-translations, etc.

i'm aware of jw 'teaching' on the subject of higher education for its members (i.e.

not a good or necessary thing) so i can understand why many jws raised in it may not challenge the publications.

dozy

I have a university degree and I know many witnesses who are similarly or better educated , including quite a few PHDs (although it is true to say that higher education is discouraged). Most , like mine , are more in engineering or similar disciplines rather than academia.

One of the problems of JW literature is that they tend to go for the "one size fits all" approach - hence the "kindergarten dumbed down" approach of much of the study media , like the "Really Teach" book. I have a call on a Greek theology professeur (not a witness) who has rigorously studied the Insight books and uses them in his teaching , so JW theology does appeal to certain individuals of an "educated" bent. An error many of the posters seem to have fallen into is the assumption that "higher education = better educated." It is my experience that this is not necessarily the case - my wife does not have a degree , yet she is far brighter and more intelligent than I am. Many of the non graduates who work in my sector of employment are far more able than the graduates , some of whom spent their studying years in an alcoholic haze.

I suppose all religions attract various types of people from across the spectrum , and JWs are no different to others in this respect.

31

Any criminals in your congregation?

by badboy in

jw
friends

any takers?

dozy

There was a "smooth criminal" at one time , I believe.......

13

Google Trends: The Mormons are kicking the JW's asses

by seattleniceguy in

jw
friends

i thought that title would get your attention.. google has released a new and fascinating tool, called google trends (http://www.google.com/trends).

it allows you to see what people search on over time.

just type in a search term, and you'll see how people have searched on that term over the past two years.

dozy

Actually , most people only use one word as a search term , so a more valid comparison would be to compare "Jehovahs (red)" , "Jehovah's (blue)" and "Mormons" (yellow) - results as shown (if anything , JWs are higher). Presumably a Mormon would do a search on Latter Day Saints.

20

Does God Work Through an Organization?

by Confession in

in other posts i've commented on how profoundly tom cabeen's essay, "does god work through an organization," affected me when i read it on september 15th, 2004. somehow realizing that the scriptures do not actually teach this helped me to see that the watchtower society was not what it claimed to be.

read it here if you like... http://www.brci.org/attachments/org.pdf.

that said, i intend to share this information (where i can) with those current jws who'll let me.

dozy

One very difficult argument that I haven’t yet overcome is that if you believe (as JWs do) that a worldwide preaching work needs to be undertaken , then how is it possible to do this without any form of structure or organised body? Any argument that God didn’t use a similar organisation in the past is irrelevant as no similar work on such a scale has been undertaken in the past (as Tom Cabeen acknowledges).

The bible instructions to meet together , to speak in unity , to have “love among yourselves” , appoint elders and others in positions of direction and , above all , the command to preach would seem to strongly infer , indeed demand , an administrative structure.

37

Do Individual JWs Pay For The Publications They Distribute?

by Joe Grundy in

jw
friends

excuse my ignorance, and i've read on boards about the us not selling/inviting contributions issue, but do individuals jws in effect pay for the publications they give out?

if so, is that only for their magazines or for hardback books as well?

how is this organised, please?.

dozy

However, many of the problems associated with the WTB&TS can be and IS caused by the actions or inactions of the Elders. That is a fact! MANY problems could be taken care of and CHANGES could be made IF the Elders and other leadership were more realistic and honest for everybody concerned!

I agree to an extent , Mr K. There are some useless elders around. However , it was only when I became an elder that I realised that I was basically impotent (in a figurative sense , I hasten to say .) The real power is invested in the GB - the R & F elder can do very little other than reinterpret the demands of the GB to lessen the burden on the brothers.