Posts by lovelylil

56

Short Survey for Non-Trinitarians

by Amazing1914 in

jw
friends

the survey is intended for any ex-jws who remain christian, but continue to be non-trinitarian.

please give a concise, well developed statement of what you believe regarding the holy spirit.

please do not go into lengthy dissertations trying to prove your point.

lovelylil

Amazing,

When I was an active JW we were taught that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. Since leaving and thru much study and prayer I now believe that Jesus is not Micheal but Gods only son and that he is the Logos, the divine son of God. I believe if God is divine, his son must be also. Just as a human cannot beget or sire something that is not human. Although God did not make Jesus in the same way a human father would, beget is still a term that means sired. He was not created like the angels rather he always existed with God. And was a part of God. See John 1:1. The JWs twist this verse and say you cannot be with someone and be them. Well, if you are divine like them I believe this verse to make perfect sense. The Word, Jesus was with God in the beginning (before time was), he was God (divine and part of the father) and was with him. Meaning always with him. The problem I always had with the trinity is that I cannot believe, no matter how much I study this doctrine that the holy spirit is an actual person. But I also do not believe it is an impersonal force like the witnesses teach. Its very hard to explain exactly in words what I believe now because we cannot box God into our human ideals. But I will give it a try and hope I do not confuse anyone.

I believe in the father (Jehovah) who is God and in his only son (Jesus) who is divine like him. The son is the only one who shares the same glory as the father and is the EXACT representation of his being (think of your reflection in a mirror). Therefore, God shares his glory with the son and wants us to honor his son like we honor him. Many of the OT titles given to Jehovah are applied to Jesus in the NT therefore showing we can properly glorify and pray to him. I believe that they (Jehovah and Jesus) are tied together by Gods holy spirit which is his essence or spirit. I believe this same spirit lives in all conscecrated believers so in theory: God and Christ live in us. (thru the spirit). God uses this Holy Spirit to move peoples hearts and minds to accomplish his will. And his Holy Spirit was used during creation.

Someone once pointed out to me that if the Holy Spirit comes from God, it must also have divine properties. This I can except to a point. I still do not believe it is a person. A person cannot fill my heart and mind. It must be a spiritual force but it is not impersonal like electricity. The bible does say we cannot see this spirit. Jesus compared it in the NT to the wind. So, I do believe in Father, Son and Holy Spirit but object to the Spirit being a person in the literal sense and I object to the term trinity because it is not in the bible. I hope this helps.

One last thing, I have found numerous texts in the Old Testament that seem to show Jesus prior to his coming to earth and prove he is not Michael. I am actually working on a research paper about this. (In Daniel Jesus is seen numerous times and we can tell it is him by the description of the resurrected Christ in Rev.). Maybe I will start a thread on this topic once I have my research completed.

27

Are the 144000 Virgins or not?

by SickofLies in

rev 14:3 and they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders.

these were redeemed by jesus from among men, the first fruits to god and to the lamb.

these are they who with women were not defiled, for they are virgin; these are they who are following the lamb whithersoever he may go; these were bought from among men -- a first-fruit to god and to the lamb -- (ylt).

lovelylil

Great point about the time factor. I went back and read it in its entirety and I think that is a GREAT point! Thanks.

54

In Your Opinion What Are JWs Most Obsessed About???

by minimus in

jw
friends

lovelylil

SATAN THE DEVIL!

He is responsible for everything including: having to work overtime and missing meetings, people not listening at the doors, kids having too much Homework on meeting nights, school and work functions being planned on meeting nights, car breakingdown before field service, loss of job, health problems, family problems, legal problems, money problems, washing machine breaking down, etc. etc. etc. It always seemed no matter what went wrong, it was Satan trying to bring everyone down.

Once there was a "sister" who was constantly blaming satan on all her problems. She told me in the KH that Satan was following her around making her life miserable. I quoted a bible text in James that says "if you oppose the devil he will flee from you", then (with a straight face) I asked her, aren't you OPPOSED to the devil? She got the point and never mentioned Satan to me again.

5

I WENT!!!!

by darth frosty in

to the movies and watched v for vendetta again.

somehow it seemed fitting.

lovelylil

someone told me last night that there is a Satanic ritual wheras the bread and wine of Christ is rejected. Apparently you just pass it around and not partake thus rejecting it. It gave me goose bumps to think that the JWs (including myself in the past) participate in a similar ritual as Satan worshipers without even knowing it! Has anyone heard about this?

43

Who cares about the memorial?

by daystar in

jw
friends

i don't.... yesterday, my mother finally asked me if i would consider attending the memorial.

i just rather chuckled... "no, i don't think so.

" after a pause, i decided on an additional comment.

lovelylil

Dearest Rockchick,

Please be careful. If you have doubts now and are seeing things that are wrong, trust me it only gets worse once you are baptized. I made that mistake too. I had deep problems with things I was seeing and was not sure about many of the man made rules. I spoke with the elder my husband and I studied with about it but he sort of swept it under the rug. I got bapized anyway and almost immediately regretted it. I know too how you can feel pressured because my husband and I got baptized together and since it was planned, I did not want to disapoint him. BIG MISTAKE! It took 12 years of pain and heartache before I was released. And my marriage almost fell apart. It took over a year to break all the bonds and still, I struggle with some things. Please take your time. Jehovah and Jesus can read your heart and THEY know if you are sincere. The baptism is just an outward symbol of your dedication. You are already dedicated in your heart. I am sure the one you are studying with will agree. so there is no rush at all.

About the memorial, our family observed it in the privacy of our home. We took the time to share scriptures and reflect on how much we appreciated what Jesus has done for us. (including leading us out of the WT together this past year), I partook of the bread and wine but my husband is not ready too. I always felt wierd during the Witness memorials, like I was missing something. Of course, I was. I have a much better understanding of the whole thing now and knew I could partake in good faith and that the Lord would accept it. God bless you.

43

Who cares about the memorial?

by daystar in

jw
friends

i don't.... yesterday, my mother finally asked me if i would consider attending the memorial.

i just rather chuckled... "no, i don't think so.

" after a pause, i decided on an additional comment.

lovelylil

Dearest Rockchick,

Please be careful. If you have doubts now and are seeing things that are wrong, trust me it only gets worse once you are baptized. I made that mistake too. I had deep problems with things I was seeing and was not sure about many of the man made rules. I spoke with the elder my husband and I studied with about it but he sort of swept it under the rug. I got bapized anyway and almost immediately regretted it. I know too how you can feel pressured because my husband and I got baptized together and since it was planned, I did not want to disapoint him. BIG MISTAKE! It took 12 years of pain and heartache before I was released. And my marriage almost fell apart. It took over a year to break all the bonds and still, I struggle with some things. Please take your time. Jehovah and Jesus can read your heart and THEY know if you are sincere. The baptism is just an outward symbol of your dedication. You are already dedicated in your heart. I am sure the one you are studying with will agree. so there is no rush at all.

About the memorial, our family observed it in the privacy of our home. We took the time to share scriptures and reflect on how much we appreciated what Jesus has done for us. (including leading us out of the WT together this past year), I partook of the bread and wine but my husband is not ready too. I always felt wierd during the Witness memorials, like I was missing something. Of course, I was. I have a much better understanding of the whole thing now and knew I could partake in good faith and that the Lord would accept it. God bless you.

43

Who cares about the memorial?

by daystar in

jw
friends

i don't.... yesterday, my mother finally asked me if i would consider attending the memorial.

i just rather chuckled... "no, i don't think so.

" after a pause, i decided on an additional comment.

lovelylil

Dearest Rockchick,

Please be careful. If you have doubts now and are seeing things that are wrong, trust me it only gets worse once you are baptized. I made that mistake too. I had deep problems with things I was seeing and was not sure about many of the man made rules. I spoke with the elder my husband and I studied with about it but he sort of swept it under the rug. I got bapized anyway and almost immediately regretted it. I know too how you can feel pressured because my husband and I got baptized together and since it was planned, I did not want to disapoint him. BIG MISTAKE! It took 12 years of pain and heartache before I was released. And my marriage almost fell apart. It took over a year to break all the bonds and still, I struggle with some things. Please take your time. Jehovah and Jesus can read your heart and THEY know if you are sincere. The baptism is just an outward symbol of your dedication. You are already dedicated in your heart. I am sure the one you are studying with will agree. so there is no rush at all.

About the memorial, our family observed it in the privacy of our home. We took the time to share scriptures and reflect on how much we appreciated what Jesus has done for us. (including leading us out of the WT together this past year), I partook of the bread and wine but my husband is not ready too. I always felt wierd during the Witness memorials, like I was missing something. Of course, I was. I have a much better understanding of the whole thing now and knew I could partake in good faith and that the Lord would accept it. God bless you.

27

Are the 144000 Virgins or not?

by SickofLies in

rev 14:3 and they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders.

these were redeemed by jesus from among men, the first fruits to god and to the lamb.

these are they who with women were not defiled, for they are virgin; these are they who are following the lamb whithersoever he may go; these were bought from among men -- a first-fruit to god and to the lamb -- (ylt).

lovelylil

Personally I believe that this whole chapter is symbolic. I could never understand why the number 144,000 was literal and then the description of those ones was symbolic. I asked many people when I was a witness and even elders and those who professed to be "anointed" and no one could come up with a satisfying answer. My reason for coming to this conclusion is as follows:

The description is symbolic so therefore it would make sense that the number is also. The numbers are used in the bible as representative of something else. The number 12 meaning completeness. There are 12 Apostles and the number 12 (completeness) can be divided into 144,000 exactly 12,000 times.

Also, I could never understand how the true church (or body of Christ) could only be made up of 144,000 faithful for two reasons:

1 - The bible says as many as recieved him (Jesus) he gave authority to become sons of God. It does not say until the 144,000 is completed.

2 - If you look back into the past, there have been tens of thousands of diciples of Christ put to death as martyrs. These include those thrown to lions, burned alive, tortured and killed by the catholics, etc.

I find it interesting also that nowhere in Revelation does it equate the number 144,000 with those who sit on thrones or rule the earth. But about the great crowd (who the witnesses teach are earthly) it says they were chosen to sit on thrones. Rev. 5:9,10. Also, Rev. 7 says that the great multitude (or crowd) was in heaven.

As someone pointed out, Revelation is a very symbolic book and should not be taken literally or the beast would be an actualy beast and the dragon an actual dragon! This is only my two cents worth.

In light of what I think may be true that it is not literal, the virgins could be in a spiritual sense. Another side of the coin is that some believe that a literal number of 144,000 male, virgins will be sealed for deliverance during some time in the end. I am only adding this to show there are different views but I think we shall just have to wait and see. Lilly

34

New to the forum - want to introduce myself

by lovelylil in

hi my name is lillian and i am posting for my first time.

i was a witness along with my husband and two children for 12 years and gave in my letter of disasociation about a year and a half ago.

i have struggled with the guilt of bringing my family in contact with the witnesses (i have always been a bible searcher) and i am only coming to terms with this recently.. i now consider myself a born again believer in christ jesus and read my bible daily to check and see what is true.

lovelylil

Thanks everyone for the warm welcome! We truly have come a long way in a short time. When my eyes were first being opened, I thought I was going crazy. Truthfully, it may have seemed from my post that things went pretty smoothly, but actually it took some time. For me to fully come to grasp with everything was almost a year. the final meeting int the hall when I ran out was at the end. I have done a lot of research into cults since I left and I came to realize that my past childhood of abuse made me more suceptable to cults. Has anyone come to that conclusion? I thought I was going to have a nervous breakdown and was afraid to fully tell my husband about all the false teachings I found out about. I remember physically shaking when I did tell him! He at first looked me in the eye and said Well you do want you have to do and I will stick to Jehovah. The way he said it gave me more chills. I knew he was thinking I was an apostate. I firmly believe that sincere prayer works. Sometimes it takes time. One day about 3 months after I left, (my husband was still attending) I told him that in the 13 years we had been married I almost never asked him for any big favors. When he agreed I asked him to do just one thing for me. I told him to not attend the meetings for only one week (up to this time, he was very well know for attending ALL the meetings even when sick. He is ex military and is very used to routine) Then, I asked that he read the New Testament in another bible translation (I had the New International) and if he still felt that the Witnesses taught the truth, I would support his view to stay and leave it up to him to decide what to teach the kids. Anyway, long story short, at first he told me later, he did it just to disprove me but you could imagine his surprise when his eyes were opened also. About three days into it, he came to me and said you know, I am seeing lots of scriptures obviously taken out of context! He wrote his letter soon after. The thing that is hard for him is he misses the routine and he felt secure in knowing he was approved by Jehovah. Now he has to learn what to do himself with his faith and that is hard. But he is doing better.

About my address. thanks for your concern. I left it out of habit, I always to that. But, I will be more careful in the future. Looking forward to many posts!

34

New to the forum - want to introduce myself

by lovelylil in

hi my name is lillian and i am posting for my first time.

i was a witness along with my husband and two children for 12 years and gave in my letter of disasociation about a year and a half ago.

i have struggled with the guilt of bringing my family in contact with the witnesses (i have always been a bible searcher) and i am only coming to terms with this recently.. i now consider myself a born again believer in christ jesus and read my bible daily to check and see what is true.

lovelylil

Hi my name is Lillian and I am posting for my first time. I was a witness along with my husband and two children for 12 years and gave in my letter of disasociation about a year and a half ago. I have struggled with the guilt of bringing my family in contact with the witnesses (I have always been a bible searcher) and I am only coming to terms with this recently.
I now consider myself a born again believer in Christ Jesus and read my bible daily to check and see what is true. I have had to make many adjustments to my thinking and then of course help my kids to see the truth too. My husband still struggles with being out of the Org. He was a MS and even though he NEVER read the bible on his own, he felt spiritual because he went thru all the routines. I am sure many of you can understand. Very recently, he has shown interest in learning more about Jesus Christ.
As for our kids, they are 11 and 13 and right now do not want to know anything about religion. We sometimes attend church services with other non-denominational christians but do not force the kids in any way to believe in anything. They have been decompressing from all the stress they had when we were witnesses.
why did we leave, in a nutshell, I had many experiences that I could not reconcile with the bible. It was hard to see all the unloving attitudes, people being judged on meeting attendence and scriptures obviously taken out of context but still I never thought I would leave what I thought was the truth. Then one day after praying for a long time about all this, I believe the Lord opened my eyes right in the KH. It suddenly hit me that there was a "evil" presence in the hall and that these were not God's people. I practically ran out of the hall and told my husband that night I could no longer attend anymore and that I felt that I needed to learn more about Christ. This started right away.
My husband left a few months later and of course the children. We are doing very well right now. In all the years we were witnesses, it seemed like we were always depressed and never felt confident that God approved of us in any way. Now we know he does and we are very much loved! My husband and I used to always fight over doctrinal issues and almost divorced when I first left. The kids were stressed out trying to keep up with meetings, service and school work plus not having any friends. My daughter last year at 12 was suffering from major depression and it was so bad she had to be home schooled. Thank God that young children are very resilient and she bounced back very fast after we broke off from the KH. She along with our son who is 11 have made many friends this school year. They both enjoy school and are involved in many activities and enjoy being just kids. My husband and I are very much in love again and there is so much peace. I realize that us leaving all together has truly been a miracle and feels sorry for the literally tens of thousands of families broken apart by the WT every year. I pray every day for these ones.

Anyway, sorry this is so long. I would love to have any ex-JWs contact me to talk. Here is my information:

Lillian

I am looking forward to making many new friends here! May God bless you all and heal you all.

edited to embed email address and obscure personal information ~ Scully