under_believer

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Posts by under_believer

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  3

  another speed/skill based flash game to compare scores for

  by under_believer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  so this game takes like 5-10 seconds to play.

  you just type the alphabet.

  see how fast you can type the alphabet on your keyboard.. .

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  under_believer

  So this game takes like 5-10 seconds to play. You just type the alphabet. See how fast you can type the alphabet on your keyboard.
  
  http://www.offthewrist.com/index.jsp?id=ff it's called "off the wrist." I only played it once (have to run now) but my score was 5.028.
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  19

  Let's Review: How the Watchtower Society Uses Quickbuilds to Make More $$$

  by under_believer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i posted something similar to this in another thread, but i decided that this is an important subject, and something that a lot of people don't realize, so i expanded it into its own post.

  and we can always use a review now and then, so that lurkers, active witnesses, and newly ex-witnesses can catch up.

  according to the watchtower society, one of the best examples of god's holy spirit operating on the organization is the building program.

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  under_believer

  Amazing, thank you for the corrections, but I believe your information may be a decade or so out of date. I don't want to outright disagree, however, so I will try to get some more information on this before I speak further.
  
  On the first point, the fact that the Society charges interest at all is bad in my book, but the fact that they sometimes (or often) profit is even worse. I will see if I can find some information about loan rates used locally of late. Nevertheless, the point I made about disallowing other lenders is true and stands--you have to ask yourself why this is the case. Perhaps I see this effective loan monopoly, enforced by congregational sanction, as being more sinister than you do.
  
  Secondly, I was told by a local elder who was very close to the process that the Society continues to own our Kingdom Hall, held in trust, even after the loan is completed. Maybe the policy has changed since your time? Even if what you say is true, and the "decline clause" is the only way the Society can get their mitts on the Hall, you have to admit that the Society in the US is in decline and the scenario you outline (either widespread apostasy or, more likely, congregational desertion) is likely to be more and more common as time goes on, meaning the Society will come into direct possession of more and more Kingdom Halls.
  
  Third, regardless of the original reason behind the quickbuild program, I believe this is the reason it exists today. I've seen remodel after remodel--in my area, there is more than one going on in my circuit at any given time. My father in law, heavily involved with the program, has over the last 30 years worked on more than 150 Regional Building Committee projects--and he passed on quite a few. In many cases the many brothers did not feel their Hall even needed upgrading, they felt it was immodest--but they were overruled by the elder body and a rubber stamp "yes" vote, the reasoning being that we need to put forth a slick, beautiful effort in order to win converts.
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  19

  Let's Review: How the Watchtower Society Uses Quickbuilds to Make More $$$

  by under_believer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i posted something similar to this in another thread, but i decided that this is an important subject, and something that a lot of people don't realize, so i expanded it into its own post.

  and we can always use a review now and then, so that lurkers, active witnesses, and newly ex-witnesses can catch up.

  according to the watchtower society, one of the best examples of god's holy spirit operating on the organization is the building program.

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  under_believer

  I posted something similar to this in another thread, but I decided that this is an important subject, and something that a lot of people don't realize, so I expanded it into its own post. And we can always use a review now and then, so that lurkers, active Witnesses, and newly ex-Witnesses can catch up.
  
  According to the Watchtower Society, one of the best examples of God's Holy Spirit operating on the organization is the building program. And it is, indeed, an impressive enterprise--to see this all you have to do is drop by a "quickbuild", which is the Witness word for a two- (or sometimes more) day construction effort. These events have the atmosphere of an old-fashioned barn-raising. It's a festive, fun atmosphere, with lots of free food for the workers, singing, and of course lots of power tools and hammering and prayer before and after the meals. It's easy to get caught up in the spirit of the thing and really believe you can feel the Holy Spirit making something possible that wouldn't have ever been possible any other way.
  
  There are even rules that are supposed to protect the influence of the Holy Spirit from being tainted and making the project fail. People who aren't in "good standing", meaning they have recently been the subject of congregational disciplinary action for violating one of the Society's rules for behavior, are unable to participate and will be asked to leave if it comes to the attention of the site overseer.
  
  I personally have participated at many of these "quickbuilds". When I had what I believed was the honor of doing so, I was always happy and felt like I was full of purpose. Of course, all of the labor at these "quickbuilds" is volunteer labor--with very few exceptions. Sometimes a specialist contractor is needed and no local (or even regional) Witnesses can be found who have the requisite skills. This is extremely rare, though--Witnesses are somewhat overrepresented in the construction industry (probably second only to immigrant South Americans, at least in the United States) and a Witness who can do the job for free can almost always be found.
  
  And why shouldn't it be volunteer labor? After all, the local congregation completely and totally shoulders the entirety of the cost, so using 100% volunteer labor prevents any burden on the local brothers and sisters. Also, it retains that important Holy Spirit on the enterprise. This would no doubt be lost if "worldly" (what many Witnesses call non-Witnesses) people were brought in to help.
  
  The person who decides which congregations get new Kingdom Halls and which congregations remodel and which ones have sufficient facilities (for now) is the "Circuit Overseer". This man, who in times past was referred to as the "Circuit Servant", is essentially the local boss of an entire Circuit, which is a local grouping of a dozen or more congregations. In close consultation with the "Regional Building Committee", a group of local, experienced brothers, he recommends to various congregations that they remodel their Kingdom Halls or seek land for new Kingdom Halls.
  
  When this recommendation is received, a special meeting of the congregation is called and a representative of the Regional Building Committee gives a little presentation about why the project is necessary. An open discussion is then held about the merits or disadvantages of such a course. Sometimes, dissenters will suggest that any money that would have gone to this effort be sent to help foreign brothers and sisters in other lands. These people aren't typically called on by the conductor of the discussion more than once. Eventually, a resolution will be put forth, and the congregation as a whole will vote using a show of hands.
  
  The project is always approved.
  
  After this approval is received, the head of each household is asked to sit down and prayerfully consider how much money they could put, usually on a monthly basis, towards such a project. Anonymous pledges are then requested. These are in no way legally binding (though some would consider them binding before God) and the total arrived at is often fallen short of by a large amount when the actual contributions start coming in.
  
  However, the upgrade is necessary now, so money needs to be borrowed. There is only one place a congregation is allowed to borrow money from: The Watchtower, Bible, and Tract Society of New York. Borrowing from other sources, like banks, is specifically forbidden and is never done.
  
  The Society then loans money (at a certain interest rate) to the local congregation to purchase building materials, land, permits if necessary, heavy equipment rental, and inspections. Of course, the labor is free and most of the tools are provided free by the expert Witnesses who assist in the construction. This keeps the actually loan amount low when compared with equivalent non-Witness building projects.
  
  It must be stated right now that the interest from these loans is one source of income for the Society. This is justified because otherwise the congregation would be asking the Society to loan money at a loss--they could make a reasonable interest rate on that capital by investing it elsewhere, and so (the story goes) it would be unfair to the Society to ask them to loan interest-free.
  
  After the loan is received and deposited, everything is purchased and set up and the construction begins, often astonishingly quickly. It cannot be overstated how impressive it is to drive by an empty lot on Friday and then drive by the same spot and see a mostly-complete place of worship on Sunday night. Many of the brothers who participate in the building program are very experienced and have been doing it for many years, and know how to throw these things up at a rate that would seem impossible to someone who wasn't used to it. The Society says Holy Spirit makes this possible and the local brothers and sisters (and often some non-Witnesses) have no problem believing this, considering the evidence.
  
  And the project is done, and life goes back to normal.
  
  Of course the Society, as the lender, holds the title to the property, and has it on file back in Brooklyn. In the meantime, the people in the congregation have a new expense in their monthly accounts report--the loan payment to the Society. If the congregation starts falling short on this commitment (remember they made monetary pledges before God in prayer) they will be reminded that they're falling short. This usually results in a donation bump, for a few months, at least.
  
  Eventually, the loan is paid off. However, at this point, something interesting happens. The Society hangs on to the deed to the property! They hold it in trust for the local congregation, and they are the legal executor on that particular piece of property. The local congregation as a whole does NOT own that Kingdom Hall--they cannot liquidate it and get the money back.
  
  What they've been doing, for the last several years of loan payments, is paying money with interest to the Society, for a Kingdom Hall that also belongs to... the Society!
  
  If anything goes south in the local congregation, let's say mass apostasy in the elder body, for example (and there are documented cases of this happening) the Kingdom Hall can be sold and the money will go to, you guessed it, the legal owners of the property, the Society. If the remaining local faithful brothers want a new hall, they will start over with a new loan from the Society.
  
  It's a pretty sweet deal for the Society, wouldn't you say? Let's say they loan $200,000 to a local congregation for building a Kingdom Hall. After the loan is paid back, they now have $275,000 (let's say) in the bank, and they also have a brand new Kingdom Hall, build with FREE labor and using other people's tools, worth probably $400,000. Their original $200,000 has been turned into $675,000 in cash and assets, assets which they are free to do with as they please (and they do, believe me.) That is an AMAZING rate of return on investment, isn't it? For a remodel, the local congregation might borrow $75,000, pay back $100,000, and increase the value of the Kingdom Hall the Society already owns by $100,000. The rate of return here isn't quite as good, but turning $75,000 into $200,000 is nothing to sneeze at, either, and these projects are much more common and numerous than new Halls.
  
  And now you know, dear friends, why the Witnesses are always building new Kingdom Halls and remodeling the ones they already have. It is an enormous cash cow, a huge source of income.
  
  In the world at large, if you took out a mortgage to buy a house, and when you were done paying the bank you borrowed from owned your property, you'd call that a scam, wouldn't you? Not the Witnesses. They (especially the elders) will go on and on about how it's a wonderful provision from the Society to loan them money at such low rates, about how it's in everyone's best interests that the Society owns the property after they're done, so that no one evil brother could cheat the congregation and turn them out on their bottoms. One local elder told me "The Society owns the Kingdom Hall, but even they don't really 'own' it. Jehovah is the one who 'owns' it."
  
  So if you're an active Witness and your congregation is considering a remodel or Kingdom Hall build, or you currently owe the Society money, think about what you're doing when you write your next donation check. Consider it carefully and ask yourself: who am I benefiting? Myself? The dear local brothers and sisters? Or a faceless, practically anonymous publishing corporation based in New York City? And would they ever lift a finger to help me back?
  
  You may find the answer you come up with interesting.
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  25

  "Ashley Treatment" keeps severely disabled girl from growing

  by Fe2O3Girl in

  1. social
  2. current

  this news story came out today and i was surprised that we haven't had a lively discussion about it.

  it brought to mind some of the ideas we discussed on the "is circumcision child abuse?

  " thread.. ashley is now 9 years old.

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  under_believer

  More info at http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2530561,00.html.
  
  The condition she has is Static Encephalopathy (click here for the Wikipedia article). It is a form of Cerebral Palsy.
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  27

  Why can't I have a beard?

  by nonamegiven in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i've heard many times that there are some congo's in the us where you can have a neatly trimmed beard and it's perfectly ok. i have never been allowed and havn't known of anyone who could.

  how about other countries?.

  elders, why can't i have a beard and be able to be a ms?.

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  under_believer

  Q, you're a Mormon, right? Not all Mormons feel that way. I work with 3 devout Mormons, all of whom have facial hair. I think that's pretty much a local thing, it's certainly not General Authority. As mentioned before, neither the Bible nor any supposed latter day revelations forbid facial hair.
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  1

  [DUPLICATE TOPIC]

  by under_believer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  duplicate topic, please lock.

  i didn't notice http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/14/126867/1.ashx before i posted.

  apologies.

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  under_believer

  Duplicate topic, please lock. I didn't notice http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/14/126867/1.ashx before I posted. Apologies.
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  50

  My Kingdom Hall is near extinction!!

  by RULES & REGULATIONS in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  our kingdom hall was started in 1973 with only 3 families totaling 13 people.it grew to 85 members in the early 90's and that's because many were related to these 3 families.with older members dying,the young leaving when they reach 18, 5 divorces and many disfellowshipped,the congregation is down to 26 members.talk about low morale.

  where is jehovah's blessing now?

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  under_believer

  avidbiblereader, they'll keep the quick build program going no matter what. That is an excellent investment fund for the Society--it's a back door for contributions. Remember how this works:
  
  1) Congregation is told that they need to upgrade or build new Kingdom Hall
  2) A pretense of discussion or debate about whether to do it is put on, but everyone knows what the outcome will be
  3) The congregation borrows money from the Society, at interest, to pay for the renovations/construction. Borrowing money from other sources is specifically forbidden and can result in discipline for the people involved.
  4) The Society makes money off the interest for its loan.
  5) During all of this and after the loan is paid off, the Society holds the title to the property. They own it, not the congregation.
  
  This would be like me financing a brand new car for you, and when you are done paying for it I still hold the title for it. If you did anything I didn't like (and there are documented cases of the Society doing this) I could sell the car from under you and you'd be riding your bike to work, even though you paid for the car.
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  38

  Tough love with full grown kids, I am so tired.

  by restrangled in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am beyond tired and sad, this has nothing to do with shunning, or throwing them out.

  my heart hurts but i know i must stand firm.. r..

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  under_believer

  At the risk of going too far off topic, AK - Jeff (by the way my handle is under_believer, not un_believer):
  
  Technically speaking I don't believe "He" had a last name either, since the Jews used patronymics rather than surnames at that time. "Christ" is, of course, a title, not a surname. He would have been called "Jesus, son of Joseph."
  
  I just think it's funny to say "Jesus H Christ" and I like to imagine the H stands for "Henry." Brings a smile to my face every time.
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  19

  I don't know what to make of this one

  by truthsetsonefree in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  check out this email i got from a jw today: .

  the recall of all humans .

  the maker of human beings is recalling all units manufactured, regardless of make or year, due to a serious defect in the primary central component, or heart.

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  under_believer

  "The manufacturer, who is neither liable nor at fault for this defect..."
  
  And that right there is one of the many (if not the primary) inconsistencies in the Christian worldview.
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  38

  Tough love with full grown kids, I am so tired.

  by restrangled in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am beyond tired and sad, this has nothing to do with shunning, or throwing them out.

  my heart hurts but i know i must stand firm.. r..

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  under_believer

  Jesus H Christ, you people, my oldest is 8 and this thread is scaring the living daylights out of me.
  
  Any words of wisdom on preventative maintenance for avoiding this kind of outcome in the future? I have absolutely no experience with that kind of behavior. Seriously, I was a model kid, never gave my parents a lick of trouble (until I decided the Witnesses didn't have the truth), was fully financially self-sufficient at 19 and have been ever since (with the exception of a two-week period when I was 20 and lost my job, had to move back in for a couple of weeks and then it was right back out again).
  
  /shudder
  
  How am I going to sleep tonight?