Posts by detective

54

Dad is gone

by jack2 in

jw
friends

my dad passed away at the hospital today after a lengthy illness.

he was 84 years old.

some of the folks here have known for awhile that he had been ill, and they have been very supportive.

Have you ever...?

by Gig in

jw
friends

i just ordered steve hassan's books, combatting cult mind control and releasing the bonds.

have any of you read either of them and have any comment...particularly about his strategic interactive approach?

thanks in advance.. gig

I read both books and found them helpful. While I didn't employee the SIA tactic as it wasn't really viable in my situtaion, I did employee some of the suggestions for conversation starters and avoiding conversational pitfalls. Of course, i still managed to fall into a whole bunch of pitfalls, but at least I knew some of the steps that I had to take to repair the damage and regain the trust.
I haven't really talked in too much detail about what transpired between myself and the friend I was trying to "free" but I will tell you that it took a long time to even feel somewhat successful. After months of dropping various tidbits into conversation (usually about control tactics by other groups), we ended up arguing bitterly in the end. I did the best I could with my "intervention", finally getting around to drawing more and more comparisons between other cult groups and JWs. Then I dropped some JW related info. The UN scandal, wrong dates etc.
My friend barely spoke to me for months. One thing that I did, which I think is fairly important, is that I kept writing him emails. Every couple of weeks or so I'd try to send something friendly-ish along. Honestly, I was pretty pissed and hurt so it took alot out of me to write even the most mundane "hi. hope you are well." email! Funny, it was the last thing I wanted to do, but I think it might have been the best thing I could have done.
I wish I had a "team" of friends as suggested by hassan, but I didn't have that resource. Only a few of our mutual friends really understood the high-control nature of the group. It would have been nice to have some back-up.

So, in short, I'd take some of the advice and modify it to reflect your situation. It can't hurt to be aware of the advice offered by a cult expert, right?

17

X 'Hovahs Who Still Believe

by TR in

caught inbetween the wt doctrine and being "worldly", x 'hovahs live a strange life indeed.

sampling what the world has to offer, yet remaing loyal to wt doctrine is the dichotomy that is the loyal x 'hovah.. my friend, let's call him "gomer", is such a person.

undoubtedly bothered by this situation, gomer refuses to delve into the world of the truth about the "truth".

detective

Hey, I've got a "Gomer" too!

Which, uh, sounds a little pervy when I say it like that.

Also, My "Gomer" doesn't have a drinking problem.

But he's still a believer, pretty much. Though, I don't know if he'd admit it if he weren't. It usually takes him awhile to acknowledge to acknowledge that sort of stuff anyway. So far, since his exit last spring, he's complained (briefly) three times about not being allowed to participate in sports while growing up. Other than that, he doesn't talk about his experiences. Ever. I mean, EVER. I ask about his parents and he doesn't mention the whole shunning thing, saying he isn't very close to them anyway. I've stopped asking about his former roomate who kicked him out after he was df'd. (Actually, I'll give the roomate credit for letting him stay a couple of months to save up for a rent deposit). He doesn't talk about the group at all really. Of course, he doesn't know that I KNOW when he's giving me a party-inspired line. for example, the other day he complained about electric bills skyrocketing due to Christmas lights. Ummm....huh? I'd think the fire hazard would be a better christmas light negative for the witness to repeat endlessly to themselves rather than the bizarre "skyrocketing light bill" which is apparently pretty popular.

He "doesn't celebrate" Christmas but will exchange some gifts within the next few weeks anyway. He'll be spending the Thanksgiving with my family. He's beside himself with excitement. I'm glad. He doesn't have his own family, so he can have mine. And he's just crazy enough to want 'em. Go figure.
(Nah, they're good)

He went out and bought a lottery ticket, I guess he was feeling rebellious.

Is he ready to really look at things and research. I don't think so. Not yet. But I'm optimistic. I don't want an endless "Gomer" on my hands. (yuck... weird, disturbing visual again...)

40

Regarding Tombstones

by joelbear in

jw
friends

what do i want on my tombstone?.

i've always thought i would have a quote from the jimmy buffett song "he went to paris".

some of its magic.

detective

Speaking of headstones:

http://www.snopes.com/photos/grave.htm

(um, naughty word warning!)

And yes, Joel, I know I'm not in the spirit of things...
I do hope you feel better soon.

22

Let It Snow!!!

by Funchback in

jw
friends

in philly, we are supposed to get about 3 inches between now and tomorrow.

i hear in boston they are going to get a lot more.

snow is very beautiful.

detective

Hey Funch & tink, thanks for the well-wishes on my trip.

Anyone else travelling over the holidays?

22

Let It Snow!!!

by Funchback in

jw
friends

in philly, we are supposed to get about 3 inches between now and tomorrow.

i hear in boston they are going to get a lot more.

snow is very beautiful.

detective

Hi Funchback,
driving from Boston to Northern VA. I'd love to stop and meet you. Unfortunately, I'll have my ex-witness friend in tow. He's "out" but he's not yet "out" in his head. I wish he'd be up for that but he's not there yet. Based on your posting persona, I think you'd get a kick out of him. It's too bad. Someday, I hope.

22

Let It Snow!!!

by Funchback in

jw
friends

in philly, we are supposed to get about 3 inches between now and tomorrow.

i hear in boston they are going to get a lot more.

snow is very beautiful.

detective

NO!!!
Do not let it snow!! I repeat, do not let it snow!! I've got a looong drive tomorrow. I'll honk at ya when I pass through PA.

By the way, Boston weathercasters are predicting anywhere from 1-3 to 2-6 inches tonight/tomorrow. So it looks like it'll be crappy driving the whole trip.

Grrrr.

15

Part true, part error.

by Yadirf in

jw
friends

this morning i happened to be browsing thru the "questions and answers" section of the watchman web site

http://www.e-watchman.com/index.html

when i decided to follow a link to a certain page on the wtss web site.

detective

If the magi were led by Satan's star, as you allege, I would be interested to know who/what led the shepherds to baby Jesus?

By the way... LOL at the Satan's star reference. I honestly think you cling to that silly idea just to bait others into arguing with you.

You're funny.

2

The Game of Shapes and Sizes

by detective in

here's a poem by christopher jones that i thought was pretty appropriate for this forum.

it's a good one:.

the game of shapes and sizes.

detective

Yeah, I thought it was interesting too.
Thanks Lucid!

16

Elder calls this site apostate

by barry in

jw
friends

as some of you may know my ex wife has been studying with the witnesses, and has allways had a soft spot for the wt teaching of neutrality in wartime.

ive been sending her information from this site with issues i feel are important such as silent lambs, blood,the two witness issue and shunning.

anyway she has been useing the information to ask questions one elder after reading information from here said that he shouldnt be reading apostate literature.

detective

I ran a search on Coonites. I found something called Cooneyites which appears to be the same thing. Apparently related to the group 2x2s.

I didn't get a chance to read too much about it, but here are some sites:

http://www.meta-religion.com/New_religious_groups/Destructive_issues/cooneyites.htm

http://www.cephasministry.com/index_2x2.html

Disclaimer: I don't know much about these sites

I've heard of 2x2. They don't celebrate Christmas either which I've mentioned to my JW friend when the subject of celebrating came up... you know, "well, the two by twos don't celebrate Christmas either. How do I know they aren't the 'right' way?" In your case Barry, it doesn't sound like a good idea to bring up an example like that as your ex seems hellbent on checking out even the most questionable groups. That's really too bad. I wonder what it is that she is searching for and I wonder why she is susceptible or drawn to high-control groups.
I'm sorry she's struggling but obviously joining up with the witnesses or the cooneyites without being thoroughly versed in their doctrines and understanding that you are signing away your personal freedoms is really not the best answer in a spiritual search. I hope she feels better soon. Information will help her make an informed decision though. Let's hope, at least.

The Cooneyites
The Nameless House Church -
This is one cult on which very little has been written despite the fact that they are one of the largest cults in Australia.
The Cooneyites
Although known as Cooneyites members will quickly tell you the Cooneyites are another group and have no association with them. The group we know as the Cooneyites have also been known as Irvingites, Go-preachers, Two-by-twos, Workers and the Nameless House Church or Christian Convention Church. They prefer to call themselves The Way, The Jesus Way or The Truth.
They began in Ireland toward the end of the 19th century. Their founder was William Irvine. For a time they were accepted by the churches but this was withdrawn when Irvine publicly denounced all other churches. In later years Irvine was excommunicated along with another top leader, Edward Cooney. Those who followed Cooney also became known as Cooneyites.
The Cooneyites have no headquarters nor do they construct meeting places, yet they are extremely well co-ordinated and effective in seeking and gaining converts. Many a Christian has been caught, believing they are in a normal. albeit strict, Christian church - similar to a strict Brethren group. So good is this front that some Christians (including leaders with a solid knowledge of the Bible) have ALMOST been deceived into accepting them as Christian. There are some who still do not believe this group is a smooth and subtle counterfeit - a cult. This opinion is due to lack of information. Unlike other cults they do not print literature stating their beliefs, and members will not discuss them. It has only been in recent years that some who broke away have given this vital information.
Their Organizational Structure
They have a clergy-laity distinction - the ordinary member and the Preachers. The Preachers are men and women who have given up all their worldly possessions and live according to Jesus words in Matthew 10:17 e.i. working in pairs, without money etc. They must walk as Jesus - no permanent place to lay their head. While in the early days these preachers often lived as street people, today they move into members homes when they are in the district and it is the members who keep them. Each state has a Senior Preacher, under which the others operate. The Preachers exert enormous power and rule with iron fists. Fear of excommunication is used to obtain total submission.
They regard themselves as the only true Christians. Conversion to Christ through any other church is Satanic. Any deviation from their teachings is earthly, sensual and devilish. They believe their preachers are direct descendants of the apostles.
Current members do not know their movement only began last century and if challenged will tell you there have been groups of them scattered throughout Europe since the first century.
In the past they avoided cities, preferring country districts where there was less opposition. However, they now have large numbers in city areas where they have had great success in wooing people away from their own church. Many a Pastor has lost members to them without even known who they were.
Conversion Techniques
They present themselves as ordinary Christians and do not disclose their true identity. Members will not discuss beliefs but will refer you to their Preachers. They are very friendly to a prospective convert and if a person shows promise they arrange for their Preachers to visit. The Preachers only visit someone deemed worthy - someone prepared to listen. They state they have come to preach the true gospel and belong to no sect. If their gospel is rejected they have been known to be quite insulting, even literally shaking the dust of their feet in front of those who reject them.
If the prospect shows signs of accepting, the Preachers generally rent a local hall where they hold weekly missionary meetings just for this persons benefit. All preaching at these meetings (and the house church meetings they attend) is directed at the prospect. These special meetings continue until the person either converts or leaves.
Converts are baptised by immersion and renounce all former religious connections. If necessary, opposing family members are renounced also. Children have been known to forsake parents and leave home under their influence.
Christians should be on guard - especially with the current popularity of House Church groups.
Meeting Arrangements
Normal meetings are held in the homes of saints but they also have large groups set aside in various locations for their conventions. They hold 2-day conventions twice a year and a 4-day convention during the summer holiday season. The convention site for our hometown, Brisbane, (only 10 minutes drive from our home) covers 10 acres. Of this, 5 acres is used from the car park and the other 5 acres is crowded with people. You can drive past at convention time and not even know that there are so many people there, yet the Brisbane convention needs TWO conventions over the Christmas/New Year period to handle the numbers!
In the early 1970s it is known that there were about 120 such convention sites in the United States. In the State of Oregon it was estimated that there were about 5000 members at that time. This number would have increased dramatically since then.
In Australia it is estimated there are over 70,000 members. Based on the number attending their annual conventions in Australia at least 50,000 are adults. With no headquarters, no organization and no public seeking of converts, there are almost as many Cooneyites in Australia as there are in BOTH Jehovahs Witnesses (appros 90,000) and Mormons (Approx 80,000). (As of 1991)
Their Beliefs
They declare the Bible is a dead book and can only be understood through their preachers. While they seem to profess the Historical Church belief in the Deity of Christ when one first talks to their preachers, it becomes clear late that they do not hold to this. They believe that Christ was neither perfect man nor perfect God. He is seen more as a pattern preacher who showed the way in which one must walk for salvation. Their view of the incarnation and atonement is very limited, and they do not refer to Jesus as their Redeemer. There is a definite antagonism to the Biblical Gospel. The new birth is denied and replaced by conversion to the Jesus Way. The Holy Spirit has no part in this work, not has the blood of Christ. Instead their preachers get the credit. They believe that the blood of a dead man cant save anyone and salvation comes through following the Jesus way after baptism. If you do this faithfully you MIGHT be saved.
In Summary
Their salvation is based on works, not faith. (Eph 2:8,9) Their Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible which tells us that when He walked on this earth He was God manifest in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16) They deny that salvation is through faith in the shed blood of Christ and without this there is no redemption of justification. (Romans 3:24, 25; Acts 10:34; 1 John 1:7)