Posts by PrimateDave

6

Is the book"Aid to bible understanding" apostate material now?

by cultswatter in

ray franz and ed dunlap worked on the aid book.

both of these men later left the wts because they could not stand wts lies any longer.. here is a scenario.

lets say an elder has to give a talk on sunday.

PrimateDave

No, of course it isn't "apostate" material. I'm sure that large numbers of Witnesses still have it in their personal libraries.

No one in the K. Hall would say anything bad about the Aid book.

However, if some subject found in the Aid book has been "updated" in the Insight volumes, then the "updated" information takes precedence.

Come on, people, you were all Witnesses once, right? Even the Commentary on James book is still on the 2005 CD-ROM. It is still "up to date" even though it was mostly written by Ed Dunlap.

And, neither Ray Franz nor Ed Dunlap left willingly - they were forced out by judicial committees which likely received instructions from Governing Body members.

Dave

12

Does it really happen???

by Lumptard in

i'm sure it can happen, but how many of you were or know of people who were disfellowshipped for using the wt society's own old literature and under what "bible principle" are they able to disfellowship???

i can't think of any off the top of my head.....

PrimateDave

It is not just a matter of looking at older publications. You can look at them all day long as long as you have the "correct" attitude. What will get you into trouble is "causing divisions" within the congregation. For that you get a free trip to the back room. If you are not on the same page as the rest of the Spirit Directed Organization, then you will either humbly apologize for your rebelliousness or you will leave. That said, I know of no one personally who has been DFed for "causing divisions" with older publications, but I'm guessing it does really happen.

Dave

27

Trevor: Meditation

by onacruse in

in one type of meditation the mind is able to be fully conscious without he intrusion of words, which lead to thoughts,.

trevor, i'm not trying to get on your ass here, but, please.... thoughts without words?

that is a fundamental epistemological impossibility...rather like farting without emitting gas.. or, perhaps, we're talking about a purely personal "mystical" experience, which cannot be put into (and did not spring from, nor finds any possible formulation within) words?

PrimateDave

http://www.amazon.com/ Meditation for Dummies Stephan Bodian

enjoy, Dave

20

As An Atheist: Finding Real Spirituality After JWs

by Seeker4 in

jw
friends

i've written on here several times about how the witnesses have a really shallow spirituality.

remember how there were spiritual activities, "sacred service" as it was often called - bible study, prayer, meetings and field service - and everything else was considered not a spiritual activity, not sacred service?

they toyed with expanding the 'sacred service' definition for a short time.

PrimateDave

"What Western anthropologists noticed when they first studied the so-called primitive peoples (and they’re not really primitive, they’re just not as technologically sophisticated as we are) was that there was not a divide between activities that were sacred and activities that were profane. Life was knit into a fabric of meaning and ritual; even the most mundane acts were seen as part of a sacred existence and a higher purpose." From the sermon "The Spirituality of Basketball" by Unitarian Universalist minister Dr. Arvid Straube.

A "spiritual" JW answers from the paragraph at the meetings, gets out in service 10 hours a month, is at meetings 20 minutes before and after, and seldom misses a meeting. You see, it's all measured in activity, but so seldom did we ever discuss the mindfulness needed, the compassionate attitude that should be brought to all aspects of life, an attitude that could make EVERYthing a person did a spiritual activity. - S4

What you describe here would appear to me to represent the culture that the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses sprang from: Western Industrial Civilization as opposed to egalitarian tribal societies.

I would argue that most of us, even after we have left the regimented routine that the WTS prescribes, still live our lives by the clock and calendar because of our culture. (That is, unless someone reading this lives with a "primitive" tribe.)

I think that many of us, having seen through the scam of religion and god, still seek some kind of "spirituality" because we are stuck in a culture that for the most part denies us the Power Process that "primitive" peoples still enjoy: the freedom and responsibility for complete control in one's life.

Further, it has been stated that increased technological dependence of necessity decreases personal freedom by requiring greater societal restraints. Born of an industrial culture with its relatively advanced technology, the religion of the Witnesses is replete with social restraints and requirements. But so is our civilization in general. I think "spirituality" is a way of expressing a desire to return to a simpler way of being. As such, the Theocratic Treadmill is anything BUT spiritual.

I wish I could explain this idea better. It is just my observation. Any other ideas?

9

Your Dreams...EH?

by KW13 in

jw
friends

tell us what you dreamt about, then tell us what you think it meant .

what did you dream about?

i can't remember .

PrimateDave

I recently had a dream in which I was arguing the "truth" with my parents. I was upset in the dream and tried to explain to them why JWs are wrong. Thankfully, it was only a dream. I do not want to argue with the people I still love about their religion. But maybe I still have some unresolved subconscious issues.

Dave

33

Why Is There a Seemingly Large Percentage of X JW Jerks?

by XJW4EVR in

jw
friends

this is something i posted on minimus' "looked down" thread, and thought i would split it off into another topic.. so why is there a seemingly large number of x-jw jerks in cyberspace?.

longhairedgal wrote this:.

i know ex-dubs can be pretty bad.

PrimateDave

<--- Jerk???---<

19

Is the bible really the good book ( broad scope analysis of Its content )

by Handsome Dan in

i came across this web site awhile back and i thought it had some thought provoking information.

it is obviously written by a group of atheists.

who wanted to bring to light what all christian faiths base their religious beliefs on and probablly why some devout christians eventually turn to atheism.. if you read their analysis of what the bible says with an open mind it can be very thought provoking material.. after reading most of the sub topics they have listed, i found most of the reading to be both mind expanding and humorous for a lot of it, your mileage may vary.

PrimateDave

"You have to read it with an open mind" - Dan

Exactly. One first has to take off the rose colored glasses of Christian indoctrination in order to see the collection of documents for what it really is. Bibliolators (Christians who idolize the Bible) can't see the evil of the Bible and its God because they've been told what to believe all their lives. They will assume that it is good in spite of overwhelming internal evidence to the contrary. When pressed, they may assume some sort of fall back position while still claiming "victory" in the end.

Many critics of the Bible are far more familiar with its contents than the average Christian. That's where we get such scholarly pursuits such as the Documentary Hypothesis (aka Higher Criticism. See _Who_Wrote_the_Bible?_ by Richard Friedman). Fundamentalist "scholars" have made attempts to refute these criticisms, but in my opinion their efforts seem to lack intellectual honesty.

One such attempt by apologists is Josh McDowell's _Evidence_That_Demands_a_Verdict_. A rebuttal to that book can be found here: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/

Dave

3

5000 year old Dominator System

by PrimateDave in

after listening to the interview found on this web page:.

http://www.globalpublicmedia.com/interviews/853.

i did some additional reading on the "dominator system".. .

PrimateDave

Thanks for the reply, Satanus. I offered the links because they show that there is a different way. Our ancestral cultures, before being swept aside by the current "empire" culture, were mostly Partnership Systems. There are those who see the cracks in the foundation of the current Dominator System and seek to steer our culture back to the more sustainable systems of Partnership.

While I no longer believe in "Armageddon" or other Biblically based end-time scenarios, I have a great deal of curiosity about the near future of humanity.

Mankind seems to be heading down a path of self destruction, and there won't be a Sky Daddy to save us from ourselves.

Technology, used within the context of the current Dominator System, will not save us, but will continue to curtail our individual freedoms, create greater disparities of wealth and poverty, and enable even greater rates of resource consumption and biosphere destruction.

Change will not come about from those ruling elites at the top of the Dominator System, unless it is to their clear advantage. I think that they must like things the way that they are. Unfortunately, humanity will be forced to change when we are finally confronted with our own biological limits on this planet.

Dave

25

Do you (still) pray to God?

by Marcel in

im still a witness, but my mind is shunned, already.

im staying for fear, since i dont have anything outside the jw's.

im not a hardliner saying im sure jw's are wrong or god dont exists, but i confessed myself that i just dont know and i guess strongly that a menmade organization which behaves and acts like the wts cant be the right.

PrimateDave

There was a time when I did. As the years passed, I found it more and more difficult to believe in the Great Sky Daddy, so then I just did so when asked to by others. Unlike some, who always told "Jehovah" what they knew and used their prayers as a review of the meeting, I tried to make prayers of praise and thanksgiving to God.

Nowadays, I don't. Just not interested.

Dave

PS - welcome to the board!

9

Does the WTS create victims???

by Lumptard in

now, i'm not talking about victims of child molesters, i'm talking about the seemingly common thought process among jws and x-jws that causes them to beleive that any turn of events that deviates from their idea of how things should happen is caused by something outside themselves.

is it just me, or do many jws and x-jws tend to put blame on other things/people other than where the blame should fall...themselves or at the very least, circumstances?

blaming satan for hardships, blaming worldly people for the trouble in the world, blaming the wts for various choices that people are "forced" to make).

PrimateDave

If we take the Genesis account at face value, Eve blamed the serpent for deceiving her, and Adam blamed God for giving him Eve and Eve for "making" him eat the fruit. So, it would seem that it is just human nature to avoid taking responsibility for one's own actions.

There is a difference though between truly being victimized and refusing to accept responsibility. Real victims of crime can and should seek remedy for their grievances.

Outside the realm of criminal responsibility, I doubt one could claim to be a victim simply because one was held in ignorance of certain facts. Indeed, I think that some people are just fine within the Organization. They will be there till the day they die. Who am I to say that they would be happier leaving their beliefs behind? Can ignorance be bliss? Who ever said that life was fair, anyway?

Dave