I think this will happen all on its own with tv.jw.org.
done4good
JoinedPosts by done4good
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11
"Laughter trumps fear every time" - another method to chip away at WT's authority?
by sir82 insaw this article on slate.. it got me thinking - the wts are certainly providing lots of ammunition for spoofing.
talks about tight pants, singing trolleys, rubber faced buffoonery from lett...... what if we start encouraging jws to laugh at their leadership, instead of kowtowing in reverential awe?.
from the article:.
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A quick summary of topics and issues wrong with jws
by stuckinarut2 inyou know how our minds often get all "fuzzy" and confused when we are put on the spot and asked to come up with points?
we often tend to lose focus and go off on tangents?.
im trying to compile a basic list of bullet points for the most obvious and clear problems / doctrines / history of witnesses that can blow the org out of the water.. it is more for the purpose of getting my own thoughts clear rather than using it to talk to witnesses (as that doesn't really work).
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done4good
Sorry Magnum, but experience has taught me to respectfully disagree with you on this. All of these points are academic in nature, if not used to present a line of argumentation to a JW. I fully understand where the OP was going with it, but without purpose of discussion, none of them have any meaning outside of JW land. There are better and more convincing lines of argumentation we can use for our own edification if we need to "prove" to ourselves that JW is somehow not the "truth".
You can start by reading any science or history book...
d4g
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A quick summary of topics and issues wrong with jws
by stuckinarut2 inyou know how our minds often get all "fuzzy" and confused when we are put on the spot and asked to come up with points?
we often tend to lose focus and go off on tangents?.
im trying to compile a basic list of bullet points for the most obvious and clear problems / doctrines / history of witnesses that can blow the org out of the water.. it is more for the purpose of getting my own thoughts clear rather than using it to talk to witnesses (as that doesn't really work).
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done4good
In a D/A letter I wrote several years ago, I used bullet points such as you mentioned in the post script.
I would not use that approach today, knowing what I know now. None of those things made me leave. They served as supporting evidence to myself for leaving. Real world human factors led to my decision to leave, and this is why 99% of JWs that leave, do.
A two class system, (us vs. them); misapplied or bad logic on every level; dishonesty; lack of love; a lack of integrity; etc., are the things that wake someone up eventually, when a certain personal threshold of tolerance for such things is exceeded. This cannot be forced, although these things can be highlighted in certain situations.
The best thing to do is discuss these types of concerns on forums like this one, and let folks come here on their own volition. This is the real difference maker in the information age in which we live today.
d4g
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From 1 to 10, how do you rate the value of the Internet in your awakening?
by Hidden-Window inas we all know, the internet is a real game-changer in allowing us to know the truth about the watch tower and its history.
i always had doubts and it was the internet that presented me with the ever-growing number of individuals who were going through a similar struggle.. i give the internet a 9 in my awakening.
what about you?.
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done4good
Awakening is a process. It usually begins long before we are consciously aware of it, and ends quite some time after. I probably began to wake up unwittingly about 10 or 11 years before I left, however, as most experiencing cognitive dissonance, would have never had the self-honesty to admit it.
I left before I did any research on the internet. My own experiences by then made staying in mentally impossible. I was comfortable with that decision at the time, but soon discovered I needed answers, as the questions began to surface and the need to make sense of it all became the next important step. I had no idea just how misguided I was. The internet was very significant, (a big shout out to the late Timothy Campbell !), in allowing me to both develop the proper premises to base questions on, and getting those questions answered.
December 25, 2005 was my last meeting. I have been not been to a KH since. 9 years later, there are still things from time to time that are necessary to sort out that sites such as this are helpful with, although more in a cathartic way than actually assisting in "awakening", (such as writing this). I would like to think I am beyond that by now.
Overall, the significance of the internet is about an 8. I would have left anyway, (and did), however the internet allowed myself to be exposed to a far richer life experience since leaving than I would have had otherwise. It convinced me to pursue things I always wanted, (like do a lot of reading about all kinds of subjects, go back to school for my Master's, etc.).
d4g
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Jehovah's Witnesses are the only people who don't practice war and who preach worldwide!
by EndofMysteries inthis is what somebody has been telling me, trying to convince me aside from anything one can say or cause reason for doubt, as the evidence that they are the true religion and true people of god.
they are convinced because while 'all other' christian and other religions support war, troops, etc, jw's don't and they are the only one's who carry god's name and preach.
nothing else matters.
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done4good
The entire premise that platitude is based on is false. Approaching the platitude directly will not convince a JW. In order to make an effective argument, a JW needs to look beyond their false premise. This is not always easy, but there are ways to do this. There are even university courses that teach this type of abstract thinking, but it is a discipline, and requires a certain amount of mental practice.
Apart from the obvious fact that other faiths such as Quakers, have similar dogma, the key here is help a JW see their premise is wrong. The following lines of argumentation need to be applied:
a. Many individuals have a strong belief in some sort of pacifism. A religion is not necessary for this position. Are individual JWs more inclined toward this than the average person? Are they not simply following someone else's, (their group's), conscience on this matter? Which person represents somone standing on higher moral ground, a follower or someone making the choice out of their own conscientious decision?
b. As Cofty mentioned, is pacifism even a virtue? Even as a JW, I knew that protecting my family and loved ones knew no limits. If someone were to put them in harm's way, it is game over for them. Can this not be extropolated to my neighbors? Community? Country? It is really about protecting what is ours, or even protecting someone in danger. It is a necessary evil at best. No sane person wants war.
c. Look at the conflict within the congragations. Why does that conflict even exist? Does it originate with the individual, or might the environment play a bigger role than one thinks?
This line of reasoning will not convince someone overcome with cognitive dissonance, (any believing JW), but it will possibly plant a seed of thought that may germinate later in life.
d4g
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Most Jdubs are nice people, not really evil - give us all a break from this
by hamsterbait in.
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done4good
I stayed away from this thread for a couple of days, quite frankly, it pissed me off...
Now that I have calmed down a bit, let me explain to you why your premise is plain wrong.
Yes, the JW do some "evil" things. It is unatural, antisocial, and ultimately extremely hurtful to people to shun them, for example. The same can be said for the blood doctrine or any number of harmful things JW do to themselves, and others.
Performing those acts no more makes them evil in of themselves as would have being a German citizen who was manipulated into joining the Nazi party in the 1930s would have been intrinsically evil. The entire German nation then was not "evil". This has been said already, but it bears repeating. Having a black and white view such as the OP is very dangerous, and ends up with bigotry and hatred all of its own. These are the very types of lessons we are supposed to learn from history, or we are doomed to repeat them.
You were a JW once. I was a JW once. At what point did you become "not evil"???
d4g
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GB Doesnt Believe in 1914 Anymore My reasoning
by thedepressedsoul ini have heard a lot of talk over the last year or so if the gb will eventually ditch 1914 and some have even made the claim that most, if not all of the gb do not believe in 1914. ive given this some thought and in the past i wasnt sure.
this annual meeting puts 100%, without a doubt in my mind that the gb do not believe in 1914. id even go as far to say that they talked about that date and have a game plan in mind.. here is why i feel this way:.
there were a lot of changes with the parables at this annual meeting.
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done4good
Like all authoritarian regimes, the WT is reactionary, not strategic in the long term sense of the word. At present, they have no reason to "dump" 1914, so they will not, however...
The recent rebranding efforts are a sign that they are captiulating to social evolutionary pressures. The dates and esoteric nonsense that used to be the mainstay, are no longer stressed, since most of these can be very easily demonstrated to be untenable. That was much harder to do pre-internet, so there was no reason to move away from that particular "product". It was what made the WT different, and they reached a niche market that way. They have decided to move away from most of the old pseudo logical approach in recent years, not exactly as a deliberate effort, but rather a reactionary one as their own need for survival dictates. They never would have bothered with jw.org if they did finally see that their very existence was threatened without a, (seemingly), meaningful web presence, with all of the outward sparkle that goes with it.
Just as with implementing jw.org, they will not bother to remove 1914, until stressing that date becomes so untenable as to require it for their survival. What jw.org will do for WT is buy it time to complete the rebranding process, and, (hopefully from their perspective), use that rebranding to complete the process of eliminating the esoteric bent of the WT altogether. If they are "successful", they will create an organization that is focused on their particular alternative lifestyle, and nothing more. But again, this is not really a focused deliberate effort, so they will stick to 1914, and some other key esoteric teachings, until at which point it becomes more painful to keep them. They would rather do nothing, if they could.
I do not believe the WT will survive that transition ultimately, at least not in any recognizable form.
d4g
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done4good
Vidiot-It's pretty much a foregone conclusion by now that for a religion to thrive in the Information Age, it has to mainstream, i.e. progressive reform...
...however...
... authentic mainstreaming also involves abandoning stances that have been shown to be fundamentally flawed;
a) shunning/demonizing former members
b) forbidding medical treatments
c) covering up criminal activities of members
d) creationism/Biblical literalism
e) male privelige/mysogyny
f) forbidding association with non-members
(I'm sure there's more)Sorry, but I dan't see the org reforming those policies any time soon; they have, in fact, reiterated most of them very recently.
With JW.org, JWTV, and the like, the WTS is successfully presenting the appearance of mainstreaming... but that's all it is.
Spot on.
d4g
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The org uses "Emotional entrapment and manipulation" rather than factual substance....
by stuckinarut2 inhave you noticed just how much the org is now appealing to "emotions" rather than facts?.
we used to be told that worshiping god has an element of emotion involved of course, but that the primary motivation should be logical truth.
now though, they seem to be highlighting the "fluff" rather than the substance!.
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done4good
That is precisely what happens when one's beliefs are no longer logically defensible.
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Whatever happened has a lesson for us!
by Kalos inwhen my dad left jws, his stoic remark was: it was not a total wastage; after all i learned something good about the witnessestheir resolve to continue with their original claim that they are the appointed channel of god, even when they know in their heart of hearts that they are not.
why cant i imitate that sort of resolve in doing something worthwhile?
he thus echoed confucius who said: to be wronged is nothing unless you continue to remember it.. a poor choice we made, some obstructions or some resistance are almost always viewed with fear and anxiety.
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done4good
I just may have needed to have that experience as jacked as it was for me to be propelled into living the life I always wanted.
Very well put, Sophie.