Posts by done4good

20

A quick summary of topics and issues wrong with jws

by stuckinarut2 in

you know how our minds often get all "fuzzy" and confused when we are put on the spot and asked to come up with points?

we often tend to lose focus and go off on tangents?.

im trying to compile a basic list of bullet points for the most obvious and clear problems / doctrines / history of witnesses that can blow the org out of the water.. it is more for the purpose of getting my own thoughts clear rather than using it to talk to witnesses (as that doesn't really work).

done4good

In a D/A letter I wrote several years ago, I used bullet points such as you mentioned in the post script.

I would not use that approach today, knowing what I know now. None of those things made me leave. They served as supporting evidence to myself for leaving. Real world human factors led to my decision to leave, and this is why 99% of JWs that leave, do.

A two class system, (us vs. them); misapplied or bad logic on every level; dishonesty; lack of love; a lack of integrity; etc., are the things that wake someone up eventually, when a certain personal threshold of tolerance for such things is exceeded. This cannot be forced, although these things can be highlighted in certain situations.

The best thing to do is discuss these types of concerns on forums like this one, and let folks come here on their own volition. This is the real difference maker in the information age in which we live today.

d4g

76

From 1 to 10, how do you rate the value of the Internet in your awakening?

by Hidden-Window in

jw
friends

as we all know, the internet is a real game-changer in allowing us to know the truth about the watch tower and its history.

i always had doubts and it was the internet that presented me with the ever-growing number of individuals who were going through a similar struggle.. i give the internet a 9 in my awakening.

what about you?.

done4good

Awakening is a process. It usually begins long before we are consciously aware of it, and ends quite some time after. I probably began to wake up unwittingly about 10 or 11 years before I left, however, as most experiencing cognitive dissonance, would have never had the self-honesty to admit it.

I left before I did any research on the internet. My own experiences by then made staying in mentally impossible. I was comfortable with that decision at the time, but soon discovered I needed answers, as the questions began to surface and the need to make sense of it all became the next important step. I had no idea just how misguided I was. The internet was very significant, (a big shout out to the late Timothy Campbell !), in allowing me to both develop the proper premises to base questions on, and getting those questions answered.

December 25, 2005 was my last meeting. I have been not been to a KH since. 9 years later, there are still things from time to time that are necessary to sort out that sites such as this are helpful with, although more in a cathartic way than actually assisting in "awakening", (such as writing this). I would like to think I am beyond that by now.

Overall, the significance of the internet is about an 8. I would have left anyway, (and did), however the internet allowed myself to be exposed to a far richer life experience since leaving than I would have had otherwise. It convinced me to pursue things I always wanted, (like do a lot of reading about all kinds of subjects, go back to school for my Master's, etc.).

d4g

40

Jehovah's Witnesses are the only people who don't practice war and who preach worldwide!

by EndofMysteries in

this is what somebody has been telling me, trying to convince me aside from anything one can say or cause reason for doubt, as the evidence that they are the true religion and true people of god.

they are convinced because while 'all other' christian and other religions support war, troops, etc, jw's don't and they are the only one's who carry god's name and preach.

nothing else matters.

done4good

The entire premise that platitude is based on is false. Approaching the platitude directly will not convince a JW. In order to make an effective argument, a JW needs to look beyond their false premise. This is not always easy, but there are ways to do this. There are even university courses that teach this type of abstract thinking, but it is a discipline, and requires a certain amount of mental practice.

Apart from the obvious fact that other faiths such as Quakers, have similar dogma, the key here is help a JW see their premise is wrong. The following lines of argumentation need to be applied:

a. Many individuals have a strong belief in some sort of pacifism. A religion is not necessary for this position. Are individual JWs more inclined toward this than the average person? Are they not simply following someone else's, (their group's), conscience on this matter? Which person represents somone standing on higher moral ground, a follower or someone making the choice out of their own conscientious decision?

b. As Cofty mentioned, is pacifism even a virtue? Even as a JW, I knew that protecting my family and loved ones knew no limits. If someone were to put them in harm's way, it is game over for them. Can this not be extropolated to my neighbors? Community? Country? It is really about protecting what is ours, or even protecting someone in danger. It is a necessary evil at best. No sane person wants war.

c. Look at the conflict within the congragations. Why does that conflict even exist? Does it originate with the individual, or might the environment play a bigger role than one thinks?

This line of reasoning will not convince someone overcome with cognitive dissonance, (any believing JW), but it will possibly plant a seed of thought that may germinate later in life.

d4g

37

Most Jdubs are nice people, not really evil - give us all a break from this

by hamsterbait in

.

done4good

I stayed away from this thread for a couple of days, quite frankly, it pissed me off...

Now that I have calmed down a bit, let me explain to you why your premise is plain wrong.

Yes, the JW do some "evil" things. It is unatural, antisocial, and ultimately extremely hurtful to people to shun them, for example. The same can be said for the blood doctrine or any number of harmful things JW do to themselves, and others.

Performing those acts no more makes them evil in of themselves as would have being a German citizen who was manipulated into joining the Nazi party in the 1930s would have been intrinsically evil. The entire German nation then was not "evil". This has been said already, but it bears repeating. Having a black and white view such as the OP is very dangerous, and ends up with bigotry and hatred all of its own. These are the very types of lessons we are supposed to learn from history, or we are doomed to repeat them.

You were a JW once. I was a JW once. At what point did you become "not evil"???

d4g

74

GB Doesnt Believe in 1914 Anymore My reasoning

by thedepressedsoul in

i have heard a lot of talk over the last year or so if the gb will eventually ditch 1914 and some have even made the claim that most, if not all of the gb do not believe in 1914. ive given this some thought and in the past i wasnt sure.

this annual meeting puts 100%, without a doubt in my mind that the gb do not believe in 1914. id even go as far to say that they talked about that date and have a game plan in mind.. here is why i feel this way:.

there were a lot of changes with the parables at this annual meeting.

done4good

Like all authoritarian regimes, the WT is reactionary, not strategic in the long term sense of the word. At present, they have no reason to "dump" 1914, so they will not, however...

The recent rebranding efforts are a sign that they are captiulating to social evolutionary pressures. The dates and esoteric nonsense that used to be the mainstay, are no longer stressed, since most of these can be very easily demonstrated to be untenable. That was much harder to do pre-internet, so there was no reason to move away from that particular "product". It was what made the WT different, and they reached a niche market that way. They have decided to move away from most of the old pseudo logical approach in recent years, not exactly as a deliberate effort, but rather a reactionary one as their own need for survival dictates. They never would have bothered with jw.org if they did finally see that their very existence was threatened without a, (seemingly), meaningful web presence, with all of the outward sparkle that goes with it.

Just as with implementing jw.org, they will not bother to remove 1914, until stressing that date becomes so untenable as to require it for their survival. What jw.org will do for WT is buy it time to complete the rebranding process, and, (hopefully from their perspective), use that rebranding to complete the process of eliminating the esoteric bent of the WT altogether. If they are "successful", they will create an organization that is focused on their particular alternative lifestyle, and nothing more. But again, this is not really a focused deliberate effort, so they will stick to 1914, and some other key esoteric teachings, until at which point it becomes more painful to keep them. They would rather do nothing, if they could.

I do not believe the WT will survive that transition ultimately, at least not in any recognizable form.

d4g

16

Folks, The Word Is "Syncretism" ( Or Why I Agree With The Governing Body)

by metatron in

jw
friends

done4good

Vidiot-It's pretty much a foregone conclusion by now that for a religion to thrive in the Information Age, it has to mainstream, i.e. progressive reform...

...however...

... authentic mainstreaming also involves abandoning stances that have been shown to be fundamentally flawed;

a) shunning/demonizing former members
b) forbidding medical treatments
c) covering up criminal activities of members
d) creationism/Biblical literalism
e) male privelige/mysogyny
f) forbidding association with non-members
(I'm sure there's more)

Sorry, but I dan't see the org reforming those policies any time soon; they have, in fact, reiterated most of them very recently.

With JW.org, JWTV, and the like, the WTS is successfully presenting the appearance of mainstreaming... but that's all it is.

Spot on.

d4g

16

The org uses "Emotional entrapment and manipulation" rather than factual substance....

by stuckinarut2 in

jw
friends

have you noticed just how much the org is now appealing to "emotions" rather than facts?.

we used to be told that worshiping god has an element of emotion involved of course, but that the primary motivation should be logical truth.

now though, they seem to be highlighting the "fluff" rather than the substance!.

done4good

That is precisely what happens when one's beliefs are no longer logically defensible.

28

Whatever happened has a lesson for us!

by Kalos in

when my dad left jws, his stoic remark was: it was not a total wastage; after all i learned something good about the witnessestheir resolve to continue with their original claim that they are the appointed channel of god, even when they know in their heart of hearts that they are not.

why cant i imitate that sort of resolve in doing something worthwhile?

he thus echoed confucius who said: to be wronged is nothing unless you continue to remember it.. a poor choice we made, some obstructions or some resistance are almost always viewed with fear and anxiety.

done4good

I just may have needed to have that experience as jacked as it was for me to be propelled into living the life I always wanted.

Very well put, Sophie.

28

Whatever happened has a lesson for us!

by Kalos in

when my dad left jws, his stoic remark was: it was not a total wastage; after all i learned something good about the witnessestheir resolve to continue with their original claim that they are the appointed channel of god, even when they know in their heart of hearts that they are not.

why cant i imitate that sort of resolve in doing something worthwhile?

he thus echoed confucius who said: to be wronged is nothing unless you continue to remember it.. a poor choice we made, some obstructions or some resistance are almost always viewed with fear and anxiety.

done4good

This is a very good post. To paraphrase it, we learn from all things, good and bad, and those experiences make us who we are. There are rich rewards to be had from such learning experiences that are not always obvious, but allow us to not only become the persons we are, but also allow us to understand others, and life in general, better. The JW experience may have been long and painful, (even after we leave), but there will also be important lessons to be learned from it, that allow us to grow, and help others grow.

To Kate's point, it is easy to sound elitist when drawing attention to ideas and concepts people may not be ready for. Many on here are still very close to the source of the pain caused by JWs, (shunning, many family issues, possible underemployment issues, etc.), so an OP like the one above may present itself as being somewhat condesending, and even confusing. Some may also not have the personality type that cares for such theoretical and philosphical ideas as the ones you present as well. Keep this in mind when posting here, as it is easy to offend such ones. I have done the same myself here, and now try much harder not to, realizing others closer to the source of that pain need this place more than I do.

There are some here, (like myself), who are far enough away from the immediate source of that pain, but yet still deal with some special issues caused by the JW expericence. It is why I still visit here after 8 years. A post like the one above, is for this very limited audience.

Kate, chill out on him/her a bit. This post is meant for those a bit farther away from some of the pain, but yet are still going through long term issues, (maybe for the rest of their lives), related to the JW experience. Try to understand that someday you might just need a post like this.

d4g

28

Should some people actually be Witnesses?

by Apognophos in

it seems to me like certain people actually benefit from joining the religion.

primarily i'm thinking of ones with drug problems who are only able to quit because they are working towards baptism.

another example would be those who are always getting in fights or who have a big ego, and who learn to be pacifistic and humble as a witness.

done4good

Let me ask this question another way...Do some people actually need to shoot heroin?

Religion is much like a drug. Authoritarian religions are hard drugs. JW is heroin. An heroin addict will need something to help them rehabilitate, (such as methodone), which is still addictive and harmful, just not as deadly. The idea is an addict needs to be weened off the most harmful substance.

Leaving JW is no different for some. Many have no point of reference for how to exist without it. Like the heroin addict who tries to quit cold turkey, (a potentially fatal situation), a JW of this type will not be able to function normally in the outside world. They need something to help them find direction. That does not mean they should keep taking the worst possible poison however. Most other religions are not nearly as harmful, (however untrue they are), and might at least serve the purpose of helping one gain equilibrium.

I am atheist, but I know leaving is a process, not unlike detoxification.

d4g