The more popular question "where is the great crowd" has been discussed quite a lot, and even the Bible tried to say a few words about it (Rev 19:1, great crowd in heaven).
But I am more interested in the little flock. Where is the little flock?
I must admit that when I read Rev 7 a few years ago, I never found the difference betweeen the great crowd and the 144,000. There, John first hears about 144,000 persons, and right afterwards he sees a great crowd that he is not able to count.
Now, if I saw 144,000 persons, would I be able to count them? How would you interpret me if I told you this story:
"My neighbour came running towards me shouting that 144,000 angry women wanted to kill him. He ran inside and locked his door. The next moment I saw a great crowd of angry women, they were so many that I couldn't count them."
Would you assume that there is a great crowd of angry women + a small flock of "only" 144,000?
Even more confusing:
Rev 7:9-13 (the great crowd washed their robes)
Rev 22:14 (incidentally, those who washed their robes are allowed into the heavenly city, which by the way is a great cube: Rev 21:16)
Rev 7:3-4 (God has 144 000 slaves)
Rev 7:15 (now it's the great crowd that serves God)
OK, I have been told that the little flock is actually mentioned in the Bible, in Luke 12:32. So if there is a great crowd in Rev and a little flock in Luke, then the little flock in Luke should be found also in Rev, though not in any other book, only in Luke and Rev. And in Rev the little flock of Luke should be identical to the 144 000 that John is told about right before he sees a lot of people.
Why? Because a great crowd is mentioned. So the only candidate for the "little flock" role would be the 144,000. And yes, there has to be a little flock in Rev because it is mentioned in Luke and because there is a connection between the books. And there is a connection because Luke mentions "little flock" while Rev does not.
I read Luke 12:32 too. In Luke 12:32, Jesus is talking to his disciples. Does this mean that Jesus has 144,000 discipels, or would it be awkward to make that connection between Luke 12 and Rev 7?
John 10:16 has also been mentioned to me: "And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold". Strange, I thought, why don't they quote the rest of the verse? "those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd." What? Only one flock? If there are many sheep and they become one flock, will that flock be small or great...?
Let's forget about the hieron/naos thing and leave that to others: http://www.xjw.com/where.html
I just want to ask:
Where is that little flock? I mean, where in the Bible?
Posts by dust
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48Where's the Great Crowd?
by Mrs. Witness insorry if this has been discussed ad nauseum, but i'm at work and don't have time to search...i'm having a discussion (argument) with my jw hubby about the location of the great crowd.
we've looked at rev.
4 through 7 and he agrees with me that everything is in heaven "before the throne" until we get to the great crowd... does anyone have any easy-to-understand comments on this subject?
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dust
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Scream when Raped...
by KW13 inthought i'd bring this up again, i found it on the watchtower library and thought it was extremely annoying how they can say rubbish like this.. rape has become increasingly common today.
a major reason seems obvious.
sex and violence explode from tv and movie screens, from radio, newspapers, magazines and billboards.
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dust
Rape is violence.
When someone is raped, she (or even he -- there are also male victims) is in an extreme situation. It is not always easy to think (or act) rationally in extreme situations. There are those who are paralysed by the situation. There are those who even try to console the rapist by reflex. We all have an "autopilot" that can be activated in extreme situations. Also during a rape, the "autopilot" can be activated, and the victim survives, only to be told afterwards that she (he) "should have done this or that accordig to scripture such and such".
The statistics show that most rapes are performed by friends/husbands/boyfriends, i.e. people you trust. That makes the situation even more extreme, as a cruel violation of intimate trust.
Compare it with being suddenly knocked out on the pavement. We would never demand that "well, you shouldn't have fainted, and even if you fainted, you should have fought back". But people do actually demand this from rape victims. It makes me sick.
Sorry, I just had to write it down. -
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Dilemma - What can I offer my wife if she leaves the witnesses?
by truthseeker inthis week, my wife called me an "opposing husband" - because i stopped believing that jehovah chose the watchtower society as his sole channel on earth.. .
my wife knows about the society, it's flip-flop on doctrines, child sex abuse scandals, including the un, but none of that matters.. .
she doesn't read the litertaure, not even the bible.. .
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dust
This isn't about convincing or not convincing your wife about the WTS. It is about being able to communicate and respect eachother. If I were in your situation, then I would have suggested marriage councelling by a professional who knows something about psychology and communication.
I am not saying that anyone of you is to blame for anything. But perhaps you both need to become aware of how the other one feels.
An alternative to councelling could be a book (read it together!) like Gary Chapman's "The Five Love Languages". My wife and I read it, not because of problems but because we wanted to learn. And it proved very helpful, we even learnt things that we didn't know we needed to learn about communication. Before we read the book, we felt that we already communicated well. After we read it, we had learnt much more about how both "I" and "the other one" communicates. One gets to ask oneself quite a lot of questions.
http://www.amazon.com/Five-Love-Languages-Heartfelt-Commitment/dp/1881273156/
I'm not saying that a book like this will solve your problems. But it can be a start, and it can be valuable in itself, even to improve what is already good. -
7
statistics
by dust inhello friends.
we've been to the district convention and heard some statistics: 6.5 million publishers, 1.3 billion hours in 2006, 28.5 million copies of the wt.
this supposedly proves that the witnesses are the real followers of christ.
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7
statistics
by dust inhello friends.
we've been to the district convention and heard some statistics: 6.5 million publishers, 1.3 billion hours in 2006, 28.5 million copies of the wt.
this supposedly proves that the witnesses are the real followers of christ.
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dust
Thanks for the suggestions, but I've promised an elder some feedback about the convention (as I've never been a JW, but he sure wants me to become one). So I bounce this to the top. :)
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statistics
by dust inhello friends.
we've been to the district convention and heard some statistics: 6.5 million publishers, 1.3 billion hours in 2006, 28.5 million copies of the wt.
this supposedly proves that the witnesses are the real followers of christ.
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dust
Hello friends.
We've been to the District Convention and heard some statistics: 6.5 million publishers, 1.3 billion hours in 2006, 28.5 million copies of the WT. This supposedly proves that the Witnesses are the real followers of Christ.
Some time ago, I can't remember if it was here on the forum or somewhere else, I saw some statistics about another organization that was far more impressive than this. Can anyone help? -
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33
freemasons
by bigdreaux ini've been invited to join the freemason's.
the story behind this happening is this.
i was talking to a guy i know very well, and i noticed he had a masonic emblem {the compass and square} on his ring.
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dust
According to a friend of mine, as a Freemason he is expected to believe in the trinity. As for the rituals, he has explained that they are secret because of the psychological effect in their educational system. They don't want to spoil that by telling people in advance. Anyhow, their member lists and rules are all public, at least in my country.
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1 Tim 3:1-10 promotes an organisation
by besty inspeaking with a hardline friend (oxymoron alert) tonight he used the above verse as proof that jehovah needs a hierarchical organization - otherwise why stratify the membership?
any refutation?
cheers .
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dust
Mark 9:38-40.
It's fine to be organised so one meets others, but one shouldn't monopolise God/Jesus/whatever. -
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Do JW's believe the third temple will be rebuilt?
by Bob Loblaw inso i just read this article "strumming to the third temple" (http://www.infolive.tv/en/infolive.tv-6231-israelnews-strumming-third-temple) (beautiful harps btw) and it made me wonder if the wts believes that a third temple will be built.
many religious jews and evangelical/ fundamentalist christians believe a third temple will be built,...so what about the jw's?
do they have any teachings on the subject?
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dust
The House of Yahweh has already patented the third temple.
http://www.yahweh.com/TemplePage/Temple.html
United States Design Patent #360951
Israeli Design Registration #23078
So even though Armageddon didn't come yesterday, there is still hope for them. ;)