Posts by Pahpa

41

christianity

by BR25 in

i have been to a few christian churches, but not many.

i just had a few questions.

my buddies are from springfield ( the christian belt city) and as i already noted in another post we have discussed religion for.

God reveals himself in different ways. I always think of Elijah's experience: "Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind. After the wind, there was an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake. After the earthquake came a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper." (1 Kings 19:11-13) For many of us it is that "gentle whisper" that has drawn us close to God. But what ever the experience, it is the personal relationship between God and you that really counts not the association with a particular church.

58

How do JWs explain John 20:28?

by Zico in

much is made of john 1:1 in trinitarian discussions and there's a lot of debate over how it should be correctly translated, depending on your particular bias on the jesus god issue, but surely there is no scripture more clear that jesus is god than the one where thomas directly calls him god in john 20:28?

27next he said to thomas: put your finger here, and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop being unbelieving but become believing.28in answer thomas said to him: my lord and my god!

how do jehovah's witnesses deal with this scripture?

Pahpa

Greendawn

I know that Russell backed the Zionists because of his own belief that the Jews would return to Palestine before "the end." And I know that he did speak at several Zionist meetings for which he might have been compensated. But I'm not aware that the Jews regularly financed the Watchtower Society. Do you have any facts that would confirm this?

58

How do JWs explain John 20:28?

by Zico in

much is made of john 1:1 in trinitarian discussions and there's a lot of debate over how it should be correctly translated, depending on your particular bias on the jesus god issue, but surely there is no scripture more clear that jesus is god than the one where thomas directly calls him god in john 20:28?

27next he said to thomas: put your finger here, and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop being unbelieving but become believing.28in answer thomas said to him: my lord and my god!

how do jehovah's witnesses deal with this scripture?

Pahpa

Zico

I don't think we'll settle the debate of Christ's relationship to God as it has been argued to death (literally in the case of Calvin and Servetus) since the 5th century. The Trinity doctrine demands the "equality" of Father and Son. Subordination would contradict the basis of the doctrine. Paul makes it clear that even in the future after "all things" are subject to Christ, Christ himself subjects himself to God. (1 Corinthians 15:26-28) And this would certainly fit the definition of "subordinate....subject to the authority or control of another."

I am amused at your question as to whether Greendawn and I were "polytheists." This is exactly the charge that Jews and Muslims make against trinitarian Christians because of their convuluted attempt to explain the doctrine.

I have always been convinced that one of the reasons the trinity became the leading doctrine of orthodoxy in the church was because of the strong anti-semitic movement that developed. This doctrine in particular separated the last connection between Jews and Christians. And eventually gave the church an excuse to persecute the Jews as "God killers."

58

How do JWs explain John 20:28?

by Zico in

much is made of john 1:1 in trinitarian discussions and there's a lot of debate over how it should be correctly translated, depending on your particular bias on the jesus god issue, but surely there is no scripture more clear that jesus is god than the one where thomas directly calls him god in john 20:28?

27next he said to thomas: put your finger here, and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop being unbelieving but become believing.28in answer thomas said to him: my lord and my god!

how do jehovah's witnesses deal with this scripture?

Pahpa

Zico

I think you are aware of the fact that the word "god" is a relative one in Scripture. Satan is the "god" of the world. Humans are spoken of as "gods" in scripture. The distinction comes with the difference between them and Almighty God. Jesus is never called Almighty God in the Bible. In fact, he is never called "God the Son." He remains as the "son of God." This position as "son" is easily understood in human terms. And this is how God revealed him to humankind. True, I don't think we, as humans, can fully understand the relationship between God and Christ since it is understood only in spiritual terms. But we should accept what God has revealed.

I do agree with you fully that the Watchtower has diminished Christ's role. Perhaps, in elevating the importance of the organization this was inevitable. This is the greatest error of the many errors of the Watchtower's teachings.

58

How do JWs explain John 20:28?

by Zico in

much is made of john 1:1 in trinitarian discussions and there's a lot of debate over how it should be correctly translated, depending on your particular bias on the jesus god issue, but surely there is no scripture more clear that jesus is god than the one where thomas directly calls him god in john 20:28?

27next he said to thomas: put your finger here, and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop being unbelieving but become believing.28in answer thomas said to him: my lord and my god!

how do jehovah's witnesses deal with this scripture?

Pahpa

I agree with Greendawn. I don't think that most unitarians would argue against Christ being God in the sense that he is divine. Scriptures are clear on that point. (Isaiah 9:6, John 1:1, etc.) But the scriptures also seem to be very clear that Christ is in subjection to Almighty God even though his exists in "God's form" or "nature." Paul says at Philippians 2:6-11: "Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." In Paul's discussion to the Colossians he speaks of Christ as "the image of the invisible God" (1:15) and "...in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form...." (2:9) Christ is an "image" of God and reflects the perfect qualities of God in his very being. But Paul doesn't confuse the issue. In chapter 3 he states: "And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him." Christ's role as "God" is never linked with a role as "Almighty God."

An image or reflection is not the same as the person.

19

The FBI and the JW's

by kwr in

does anyone know anything about investigations of the jw's by the fbi or by other federal agencies?

i'm especially interested in any investigations by j. edgar hoover.

have there been any foia requests done of the fbi about investigations of the jw's or their leader(s)?

Pahpa

The FBI did a number of investigations during the time that JWs were claiming to be "consientious objectors" during the draft years. The agents would interview neighbors, friends and employers about the sincerity of the individuals under investigation. Files were kept on these individuals. One could probably request the information that was gathered at that time under the "Freedom of Information Act."

23

Personal Revelation

by Briguy in

sorry i do not post much but i do not have much original things to share because everyone here seems to cover it all.

i have had something strike very close to home and i thought i might share it incase someone out there might be thinking the same thing and is trying to put their finger on it.

i should give a small history on it to set it up.. growing up in the truth i was a model young man.

Pahpa

Briguy

Follow up "Crisis of Conscience" by reading Ray Franz's book "In Search of Christian Freedom." It is a matter as noted of "finding a proper balance between freedom and responsibility" that faces every serious Christian. I would strongly recommend it to anyone who is searching for answers.

18

Memorial 'Holiday"?

by onlycurious in

if the dub's don't believe in celebrating holidays, what makes the memorial different?.

Pahpa

One of the aspects of the Memorial that always reminded me of the Easter celebration was how the sisters in the congregations always got into their best finery, even buying new clothes, for the occasion. It was always like "an Easter parade" of fashion!

11

Question on the new light regarding annointed and 1935

by Check_Your_Premises in

i see there is some new light out there regarding the date when the ranks of the annointed stopped being filled.

as everyone knows, this was probably the most untenable aspect of the annointed/two classes of christian doctrine because, tick-tock, the world hasn't ended yet and we are quickly running out of people who could credibly have been annointed and lived before 1935.. my question:.

wasn't this date given it's credibility (since there was no scriptural basis for selecting this date) by rutheford claiming that an angel told him?.

Pahpa

The idea that the "high calling" of the annointed would be fulfilled predates Rutherford by a number of years. Russell, who thought the rapture would occur in the year 1881 wrote in Zion's Watch Tower of 1880: "...the high calling - to be bride- will end in the autumn of 1881." (See Penton's Apocalypse Delayed....page 25) Of course, Russell considered the "great multitude" as a secondary heavenly class. However, it was Rutherford who introduced the new light that the "great multitude" and the "other sheep" were an earthly class in 1935. And the Watchtower Society held to this date until recently.

In view of the various interpretations of the Society over the years, it is not surprising that there would be another adjustment in their teaching on this subject. 1935 was 72 years ago. It, undoubtedly, becomes an embarrassment like "this generation" did. But the pivotal date of 1914 will be much more difficult to explain away as we approach the 100 year mark in just 7 years.

116

Convince me

by Liza in

i am highly considering becoming a jehovah's witness.

i have been raised in the congregration, but left it when i was a child because my mom left too, but we still retatined the core belifs including the ressurection and the blasphemous pagan influence on mainstream churches.

my mom has recently returned to the congregation, and it has helped her a lot.

Pahpa

Liza

You may want to consider whether or not Jehovah's Witnesses want you in view of your doubts about the some of their beliefs. The Watchtower Society demands absolute loyalty to its organization. It means you have to accept the idea that only JWs will be saved at Armageddon while billions of people will be destroyed. It means that you will have to shun former members who have rejected the Watchtower. It means that you can not even express doubts about the Watchtower and its teachings. Are you willing to do these things?

Before making any decisions, I would recommend that you read Ray Franz's books, Crisis of Conscience and In Search of Christian Freedom along with James Penton's book, Apocalypse Delayed. These books will give you a clearer view of the history of the Watchtower Society and the internal workings of its organization.