Posts by Earnest

740

The Trinity

by meadow77 in

top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

When I suggested that using the excuse that "God is infinite, we are finite" to avoid thinking about what we believe, you accused me of being a liar and braggart if I claimed to understand the existence of God. That is a neat way of evading the question that I raised. While I cannot comprehend the infinite I do understand and can explain what I believe about God, which R.A.Torrey (whom you quote) says "is manifestly impossible" for trinitarians.

The fact is that the Church has explained what they believe about the trinity in both the Nicene and Athanasian creeds which is what I was asking about. That is why it is a cop-out to dismiss questions because..."God is a mystery". R.A.Torrey says that they cannot be three and one in the same sense. In what sense, then, are they one ? If you agree with the creeds that they are one in substance then I would appreciate consideration of my question: If you do not believe that the nature/substance of the angels is the same as the Son because they were created but he was begotten, why do you believe the nature/substance of the Holy Spirit, who was neither created no begotten, is the same as the Son and the Father ? If you do not believe they are one in substance in what sense do you believe they are one ?

If one resorts to saying that the teaching cannot be explained then you believe it because the Church says it is true. That is fine if you are Catholic and believe that God continues to reveal truth through the Pope (when he speaks "ex cathedra"). But I gathered that was not the case. Although I wouldn't speak too badly of the Catholics as they are second cousins to Baptists (related via the Church of England). The Mormons also believe in latter-day revelation but their trinity is three gods so that won't do. But, teasing aside, if we are searching for truth we do need to measure it against what we have already proven to be true.

Earnest

740

The Trinity

by meadow77 in

top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

Earnest

In a previous post (Nov 30, 2002 19:33) on this thread I asked "of those who believe in the trinity as formulated by the church, how the three persons can be of one substance", as the Father is unbegotten, the Son is begotten, and the Holy Spirit is neither begotten nor unbegotten.

I appreciate the response from Undisfellowshipped. You said you do not follow the creeds but believe the Bible teaches that the Father and the Son and the Spirit all share the same Nature. That does not make them a trinity unless you were to qualify that further, which is why the creeds use the word substance (they also used "substance" as it means different things to different people ). But the question is pertinent to anyone who believes the trinity : If you do not believe that the nature of the angels is the same as the Son because they were created but he was begotten, why do you believe the nature of the Holy Spirit, who was neither created no begotten, is the same as the Son and the Father ?

Perhaps it is better not to go down this road as there is no end to the constant splitting of hairs. But it is important to think about what we actually mean when we say we believe. To simply repeat R.A.Torrey's mantra (3 times - Nov 30, 2002 15:55; Dec 1, 2002 23:12; Dec 3, 2002 17:43 - as another poster has done) that God is infinite, we are finite, and so we cannot hope to understand, is a rejection of the very purpose of scripture, which is written to enable us to understand.

Earnest

Edited by - Earnest on 3 December 2002 21:31:9

16

The Reasons Why You Were A Jehovah's Witness

by minimus in

jw
friends

many here have been raised as witnesses.

others were introduced to the "truth" through various forms of witnessing.

what was the common denominator for remaining a witness for the time that we have?

Earnest

The perk of being special is true of all eschatological religions. It was true of the early Christians as well as the Dead Sea Scrolls community. It is an "us" and "them" and the "us" are God's chosen ones. How can you not feel special. In fact, the "love-bombing" amongst the JWs is a mere shadow of what went on in early Christianity where they had their love feasts, communal meals and greeted each other with a holy kiss.

I remain(ed) because the beliefs about God and Christ are, imo, close to what the early Christians believed. And certainly the idea that we are being used by God to save lives has an appeal unmatched by anything else. One cannot help wishing it were true.

Earnest

11

JHVH

by meadow77 in

just a question .

in no way is this meant argumentativly, but why all the hype over the true name of god being jehovah?

the true hebrew form of the word had no vowels.

Earnest

I don't really think there is any hype about the name. 'Jehovah' is simply the name that Tyndale used when publishing the first English translation of the Bible and so was used in subsequent translations including the King James version.

There was much speculation about the correct translation after 'Jehovah' was first used in Latin and if Tyndale had used one of the alternatives we would likely be using that instead. Both he and Luther (who also used Jehovah in his German translation) added much to their respective languages. Why change it ?

Earnest

Edited by - Earnest on 1 December 2002 10:7:31

740

The Trinity

by meadow77 in

top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

Earnest

It's certainly been entertaining to follow this thread and I can no longer resist putting my oar in. What I would like to know of those who believe in the trinity as formulated by the church is how they can be of one substance.

The Nicene Creed states that:

We believe in one God the Father Almighty...And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made...And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son...

The Athanasian Creed is more specific where it says:

The Father was not made, nor created, nor generated by anyone. The Son is not made, nor created, but begotten by the Father alone. The Holy Spirit is not made, nor created, nor generated, but proceeds from the Father and the Son.

If the Father is unbegotten and the Son is begotten how can they be of one substance ? And if the Holy Spirit is not generated but proceeds from the Father, how can he be of the same substance as the Son who is generated ? Why is this important ? Because while it is great fun to trade scriptures, many trinitarians do not give sufficient thought to what they actually believe if their exegesis of scripture is accepted. Unless one resorts to saying that the teaching cannot be demonstrated but is believed because the Church says it is true, all other explanations eventually lead either to a belief in three gods or to a description of the trinity which is actually unitarian in nature with God the Father in first place.

Earnest

740

The Trinity

by meadow77 in

top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

Earnest

When the King James was penned, worship was not as restricted a word as it is today.

Dakota:

Just a brief thought on "worship" is that there are still some expressions which reflect the old meaning of the word.

Judges, magistrates and other court officials are still called "Your Worship" and we still have a few worshipful companies (see http://www.barbers.kirion.net/links.htm).

And if a marriage is performed according to the 1549 (Anglican) Book of Common Prayer, the man says to his bride:

With thys ring I thee wed: Thys golde and silver I thee geve: with my body I thee wurship and withal my worldly Goodes I thee endowe. In the name of the father, and of the sonne, and of the holy goste. Amen.

Earnest

Edited by - Earnest on 29 November 2002 22:48:32

29

NWT

by shera in

(douglas walsh v. the right honorable james latham clyde, m.p., p.c., etc., scotland, 1954, (1958 ed.).p.88.).

under oath at a trial in scotland.

(a): i do not speak hebrew.. .

Earnest

scholar:

All bible translations have bias and the NWT is no exception. As there are different methods of translation - either translating the words or conveying the ideas - there is no one translation that is superior to all others. The area in which the NWT excels is that it is not heavily influenced by the King James Version as many modern translations are.

While we probably do know the members of the NWT Committee, I agree in principle that we do not know all those involved in the translation itself. There is clear evidence of scholarship in the translation which has been acknowledged by many.

Reference to your own scholastic qualifications is quite immateial to your argument and has the whiff of intellectual one-upmanship about it.

Earnest (of the MA (Cantab) class)

25

Cop Out!!

by LuckyLucy in

jw
friends

why do most of you blame being a jw for all your problems?if you hadn't have became a jw you would have been a catholic ,a mormon ect.ect.ect.

or even worse.

don't you think there is abuse and disfunction in every religion,cult....??

Earnest

This may not be a pissin' contest but it's a bit too smug to say:

Sorry LL but since I am a NON exJW I have to disagree. I am perfectly happy with being Lutheran. We dont have people controlling us, covering up pedohiles, destroying our families, ruining scripture, etc...etc... so your Theory that NON JWs are worse is Bullshit.

How about http://www.reporter-news.com/1998/2002/texas/sue0320.html

Civil suit names former Lutheran pastor, church officials
MARSHALL, Texas (AP) - A civil lawsuit claims a former Lutheran minister molested eight boys over several years and that his actions should have been halted by church leaders.
The lawsuit, filed Feb. 12 in state district court, names former Evangelical Lutheran minister Gerald Patrick Thomas Jr., the Chicago-based Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and several other church-related organizations as defendants.
Thomas, who resigned from the denomination's clergy roster about a year ago, could not be reached for comment Tuesday. A spokesman for the ELCA said the church will present its case in court, not in the media.
"We believe that when the facts are heard in the court, we are confident the church will be exonerated of the allegations," said John R. Brooks.
Thomas pleaded guilty in February to federal child pornography charges. The former pastor of Good Shepherd Lutheran Church in Marshall admitted in federal court in Tyler that he allowed two teen-age boys to photograph themselves engaging in sex acts at his home.
He faces up to five years in prison in that case. He has not yet been sentenced.
Thomas, who is free on bond, also awaits trial on state child pornography and sexual assault charges.
From 1997 to 2001 and several earlier occasions, Thomas committed acts of molestation "under the auspices of church protection and authority on and in church property," according to the 57-page lawsuit filed in Marshall.
"Shockingly, defendant, Gerald Patrick Thomas Jr., was known to be a pedophile before he was ever ordained as a Lutheran minister," the suit said.
In April 1997, Thomas was banned from a Lutheran church in Minnesota because of inappropriate behavior with at least two small boys, according to the lawsuit.
The suit claims Trinity Lutheran Seminary of Columbus, Ohio, covered up the incidents by conducting no investigation. Thomas was allowed to become a Lutheran minister and later committed multiple acts of molestation in Wilson, where he served as interim student pastor at St. John's Lutheran Church, and in Marshall.
Thomas "was fully entrusted and placed in a fiduciary relationship of trust and dominance, cloaked with the authority of God, over young minor boys of tender age as the Lutheran Preacher ordained by the Trinity Lutheran Seminary and accepted by the ELCA and the entire Lutheran Church Hierarchy," the suit says.
Margaret Farnham, a spokeswoman for the seminary, said the school has no comment on the lawsuit.
"We are aware he was a student here, but we don't have any details of the case," she said.
Eight unidentified males, including one who is now an adult, are listed as plaintiffs in the suit. The youngest was first molested at the age of 7, the suit says.

Edited by - Earnest on 20 November 2002 3:40:27

12

How to make women happy

by Earnest in

ever since adam, men have tried to understand the rules when dealing with women.

finally, this merit/demerit guide will help you to understand just how it works.. .

aim: make the woman happy.

Earnest

Ever since Adam, men have tried to understand the rules when dealing with women. Finally, this merit/demerit guide will help you to understand just how it works.

AIM: Make the woman happy. Do something she likes, and you get points. Do something she dislikes and points are subtracted. You don't get any points for doing something she expects. Sorry, that's just the way the game's played.

Here's a guide to the points system:

SIMPLE DUTIESYou make the bed.........................................................+1
You throw the bedspread over rumpled sheets...................-1
You leave the toilet seat up..............................................-5
You replace the toilet paper roll when it is empty............... 0
When the toilet paper has run out, you resort to Kleenex....-1
You go out to buy her extra-light pant liners with wings......+5
...in the snow.................................................................+8
...but return with beer.......................................................-5
...and no liners..............................................................-25
You check out a suspicious noise at night.........................0
You check out a suspicious noise and it is nothing............ 0
You check out a suspicious noise and it is something......+5
You pummel it with a six iron........................................+10
It's her cat....................................................................-40

AT THE PARTY
You stay by her side the entire evening............................................... 0
You stay by her side for a while, then leave to chat with a drinking pal...-2
...named Tiffany................................................................................-4
Tiffany is a dancer............................................................................-10
...with breast implants......................................................................-18

HER BIRTHDAY
You remember her birthday...................................... 0
You buy a card and flowers...................................... 0
You take her out to dinner........................................ 0
...and it's not a sports bar........................................+1
Ok, it is a sports bar................................................-2
...and it's all-you-can-eat night..................................-3
...and your face is painted the colours of your favourite team..-10

A NIGHT OUT WITH THE BOYS
Go with a mate....................................................... 0
The mate is happily married.....................................+1
The mate is single...................................................-7
He drives a Ferrari.................................................-10
...with a personalised license plate (GR8 NBED).....-15

A NIGHT OUT WITH HER
You take her to a see a film.......................................+2
You take her to a see a film she likes.........................+4
You take her to a see a film you hate.........................+6
You take her to a see a film you like...........................-2
It's called Death Cop III..............................................-3
...featuring Cyborgs that eat humans..........................-9
You lied and said it was a foreign film about orphans...-15

YOUR PHYSIQUE
You develop a noticeable pot belly..............................................................................-15
You develop a noticeable pot belly & exercise to get rid of it.........................................+10
You develop a noticeable pot belly and resort to loose jeans and baggy Hawaiian shirts...-30
You say, "It doesn't matter, you have one too."...........................................................-800

THE BIG QUESTION
She asks, "Does this dress make me look fat?"
You hesitate in responding.........................-10
You reply, "Where?"..................................-35
You reply, "No, I think it's your arse".........-100
Any other response...................................-20

COMMUNICATION
When she wants to talk about a problem:
You listen, displaying a concerned expression.......................0
You listen, for over 30 minutes............................................+5
You relate to her problem and share a similar experience.... +50
Your mind wanders to football and you suddenly hear her saying well,
what do you think I should do?".........................................-100
You have fallen asleep......................................................-200
.
IT'S THAT TIME OF THE MONTH
You talk...................................................-100
You don't talk............................................-150
You spend time with her............................-200
You don't spend time with her....................-500
You are seen to be enjoying yourself.....GAME OVER - YOU LOSE

28

Would The Society Ever Lie To You?

by minimus in

jw
friends

after reading about how we now have an increase in the lord's organization, i must wonder whether we think that their data is reliable.

the society has used "theocratic stratergy" for years and lied about anything that is in their best interests.

why take any stock in what they say about anything.

Earnest

As the WTS makes such a sacred cow out of reporting field service and each publisher has a record card I am confident the figures given for the number of JWs is accurate. It also tallies with events such as the build-up to 1975 and the 'great disappointment'.

Earnest

Edited by - Earnest on 16 November 2002 15:6:40