According to the OED the British and US pronunciation of "philistine" is different so it's a bit silly to be dogmatic about it. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. The etymology of the word is partly Latin (Philistinus) and partly French (Philistin), and in Hebrew it would be pronounced pel-ish-tee', but transliterations can be misleading on how to say it in English.
Earnest
JoinedPosts by Earnest
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Philistine pronunciation
by road to nowhere inthe wt uses phi list ine.
the world says phil is tine.
i remember they had a pronunciation guide devised by a clergyman which is ok in as much as as we dont speak hebrew.
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Re: Use of revised New World Translation
by pixel inthis letter will be read this week.
you read it here first!.
re: use of revised new world translation .
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Earnest
Thanks for reminding me about the Gideons, tenyearsafter. They are well known for Bible distribution and their website says they have placed and distributed more than 2 billion Bibles and New Testaments around the world.
But unlike the Watchtower Society they do not have their own translation, but use the KIng James Version, the New King James Version, the English Standard Version as well as existing translations in languages other than English. However, your point is well made that they are probably the largest Bible distributor overall.
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Re: Use of revised New World Translation
by pixel inthis letter will be read this week.
you read it here first!.
re: use of revised new world translation .
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Earnest
What is Andrew Thomson (the plaintiff) on about in the video above? He wants :
(1) the Watchtower to restore the 1984 NWT Committee's signature in the hard copy to its 1984 online version;
2) the Watchtower to change its 2013 title from the NW Translation to the NW English Revision;
(3) the Watchtower to change the title of the authors of the 2013 NWT from the NWT Committee to the NW English Revision Committee;
(4) that he be awarded nominal damages of $1.00 relative to the $40.00 that he paid to Watchtower for the 1984 NWT.
Connecting the dots leads me to concur with the Supreme Court that the complaint was patently devoid of merit, and to conclude he is a nutter.
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Re: Use of revised New World Translation
by pixel inthis letter will be read this week.
you read it here first!.
re: use of revised new world translation .
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Earnest
Thanks for that reference, road to nowhere. Those figures doubtless include the translations done by Jehovah's Witnesses and all other translators. But my question was whether any translator - a church, a Bible Society, an evangelical printing house etc. - were more prolific than JWs as you claimed.
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Re: Use of revised New World Translation
by pixel inthis letter will be read this week.
you read it here first!.
re: use of revised new world translation .
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Earnest
road to nowhere : The WT is not the largest distributor of bibles, nor the most prolific translator.
The website claims that more than 240 million copies of the NWT have been published in whole or in part in over 210 languages.
Have any Bible distributors and/or translations surpassed this? Whether that is the case or not, it does indicate their primary interest in Bible translation and distribution.
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It begins norway no money for wt because of shunning
by Yomama inorganized shunning will stop when money stops.
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Earnest
Just a small bit of trivia you may not have noticed in the letter sent to the Norwegian branch office, is that the branch office address is Røyskattveien 25, 1914 YTRE ENEBAKK.
Ytre Enebakk is a village in the county of Viken, 20 miles from the centre of Oslo, where the branch office was built 1981-1984. The postcode is 1914. Was this coincidence or design?
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It begins norway no money for wt because of shunning
by Yomama inorganized shunning will stop when money stops.
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Earnest
MeanMrMustard : So it was Furuli, after getting DFed himself, that got this ball rolling ... after decades of enforcing shunning and towing the WT line.
Furuli maintains in his blog My Beloved Religion that 32 of the 43 disfellowshipping offences mentioned in Shepherd the Flock of God are made up by the GB and have no Bible backing. He also maintains that neither shunning nor disassociation are based on the Bible. Whether or not he enforced shunning and towing the WT line before being disfellowshipped I do not know.
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It begins norway no money for wt because of shunning
by Yomama inorganized shunning will stop when money stops.
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Earnest
This is the letter sent to Jehovah's Witnesses in Norway regarding the refusal of state grants, dated 27 January 2022. It is a bit lengthy but nails down the objections to shunning:
JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES
Røyskattveien 25
1914 YTRE ENEBAKK
Refusal of state grants for 2021
The County Governor refers to requirements for state grants dated 26.02.2021, Ministry of Children and Family Affairs letter of 15.04.2021, our letter of 27.05.2021, and the statement in your letter of 23.06.2021.
The County Governor decided to establish an investigation case and made the processing of state grants on re-enrichment in a letter of 15.09.2021. In response to our letter, we received an account from Jehovah's Witnesses dated 11/19/2021.
Decision
The County Governor denies Jehovah's Witnesses state grants for 2021, cf. Section 11 first paragraph of the Religious Communities Regulations subsections (a) and d), and Sections 2 and 6 of the Religious Communities Act.
Subject matter
The County Governor has received a letter from Rolf Furuli in connection with the exclusion and expulsion of members. The Ministry of Children and Family Affairs has asked the County Governor to consider whether the inquiry from Furuli seems to be information of importance for registration and government grants for Jehovah's Witnesses, cf. Section 6 of the Religious Communities Act, and possibly assess the need to make further investigations, cf. Section 10 of the Religious Communities Regulations.
In connection with the investigation, we have reviewed the religious community's own accounts and publications.
The legal basis
Section 2 second paragraph of the Religious Communities Act
The religious and philosophical societies themselves establish conditions for membership and procedure for enrollment in the community. Withdrawal must always be able to take place in writing.
Section 6 first paragraph of the Religious Communities Act
If a religious or philosophical society, or individuals acting on behalf of the society, engage in violence or coercion, make threats, infringe children's rights, violate statutory prohibition of discrimination or otherwise seriously infringes on the rights and freedoms of others, the society is denied grants or grants can be truncated. Grants may also be refused or truncated if the society encourages or supports violations mentioned in this subsection.
Section 11 of the Religious Communities Regulations
The County Governor may make a decision to refuse grants if religious or philosophical societies
a) commit, encourage or support violations as mentioned in Section 6, first paragraph of the Religious Communities Act
b) use the grant for purposes other than religious or philosophical purposes
c) fail to report, report inadequately or incorrectly
d) do not comply with the law's rules for entry and withdrawal
e) have provided substantially too high membership numbers or have provided other incorrect information that has significance for the grant decision
In the assessment of whether matters mentioned in the first subsection, items a–e, shall lead to the society being denied grants, particular emphasis shall be placed on measures taken by the society to prevent such conditions. Emphasis shall also be placed on how serious the relationship is and whether it appears as intentional.
If there are grounds for refusing grants, the grant may, after a concrete assessment, be truncated instead. Nevertheless, if the religious or philosophical society has systematically, persistently or intentionally carried out, encouraged or supported violations mentioned in Section 6, first subsection of the Religious Communities Act, grants will be fully denied.
European Convention on Human Rights. Article 9 (ECHR)
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, freedom of conscience and freedom of religion; this right includes the freedom to change their religion or beliefs,
National Convention on Civil and Political Rights. Article 18 No. 2 (CP)
No one should be subjected to coercion that could restrict his freedom to confess to or to assume a religion or faith of his choice.
Section 104 third paragraph of the Constitution
Children have the right to protection of their personal integrity. The state authorities shall facilitate conditions for the child's development, including ensuring that the child receives the necessary economic, social and safety conditions, preferably in one's own family.
Convention on the Rights of the Child Article 19
The parties shall meet all appropriate legislative, administrative, social and educational measures to protect the child from any form of physical or psychological violence, injury or abuse, neglect or neglectful treatment, maltreatment or exploitation.
The County Governor's assessment
Pursuant to Section 8 of the Religious Communities Act, the County Governor has supervisory authority over registered communities of belief. Jehovah's Witnesses were registered with the County Governor on 15.10.1985, and are registered to 31.12.2022 in the transitional rules of section 23 second paragraph of the new Religious Communities Act. The religion is therefore subject to our supervision. As part of the supervisory task, we shall ensure that communities fulfil their duties under the Act.
Based on our investigations, we have concluded that Jehovah's Witnesses have acted contrary to the conditions for grants pursuant to sections 2 second paragraph and section 6 first paragraph of the Religious Communities Act.
Free opt-out
Section 2 second subsection of the Religious Communities Act states
"The religious and philosophical societies themselves establish conditions for membership and enrollment in the community. Withdrawal must always be able to take place in writing".
Furthermore, it is evident from the preparatory work of the Act that members will be able to opt out without obstacles on the part of the religious community. This is rooted in the right to freedom of religion, including ECHR Art. 9 and CP Art. 18 No. 2. Such an interpretation that the preparatory works propose also corresponds to the statement from the UN Human Rights Committee.
Jehovah's Witnesses have previously explained their exclusion practices in a letter of 04.03.2021 to then Minister of Children and Family Affairs, Kjell Ingolf Ropstad. The letter was attached to Jehovah's Witnesses' statement received here on 23.06.2021. The letter asks "whether Jehovah's Witnesses are trying to avoid those who no longer belong to the religion." In their response, it is stated that:
"We do not shun those who have been baptised as Jehovah's Witnesses but who no longer preach to others and who may have also stopped meeting with their fellow believers.
Someone who violates the moral norms of the Bible is not automatically excluded. However, if a baptised Jehovah's Witness makes a habit of breaking the Bible’s moral standards and doesn't want to change, he or she is excluded and we shun that person. This practice is based on the teachings of the Bible. All Jehovah's Witnesses agree to live by these standards when they make the well-considered choice to be baptised." (letter to Ropstad 04.03.21)
However, it is stated in the book "Organized to do Jehovah’s Will" that a member who has chosen to withdraw is treated in the same way as one that is excluded:
"The phrase ‘disassociation’ denotes that a baptised member of the congregation deliberately repudiates his Christian standing by declaring that he no longer wants to be known as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Or he can reject the congregation by his actions, for example by becoming part of a secular organization whose purpose is contrary to the Bible, and therefore condemned by Jehovah God.
If a Christian person chooses to disassociate, a brief announcement is made to inform the congregation, stating, ‘[Name of person] is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses.’ Such a person is treated in the same way as a disfellowshipped person."
The consequence of leaving the congregation is that they are no longer allowed to have contact with family and friends in the congregation. The religious community is clear that members should not have contact with excluded members. As we see in the section above, this also applies to members who have resigned. This practice may cause members to feel pressured to stay in religion.In the opinion of the Rate Manager (Satsforvalterens), this practice is an obstacle to the members' right to free opt-out, and in violation of Section 2 second paragraph of the Religious Communities Act. Pursuant to Section 11 (d) of the Religious Communities Regulations this may result in grounds for denying grants to the religion.
Exclusion of a baptised minor
In a letter from the Ministry, the County Governor was asked to take a closer look at Jehovah's Witnesses' exclusion practices of children. In a letter to the then Minister of Children and Family Affairs, Kjell Ingolf Ropstad, dated 04.03.2021, the society explained how they treat a baptised minor who violates the rules of the religion.
"If a baptized Jehovah's Witness, regardless of age, makes a habit of violating the moral standards of the Bible and does not repent, the same practice applies as mentioned earlier."
In the quote above, Jehovah's Witnesses refer to the exclusion practice described earlier in the same letter.
The book "Organized to do Jehovah’s Will” elaborates on how baptised minors are treated:
“Serious wrongdoing on the part of minor children who are baptised should be reported to the elders. When the elders handle cases of serious sins involving a minor, it is preferable that the baptised parents of the young person be present and cooperate with the judicial committee, not attempting to shield the erring child from necessary disciplinary action. Just as in dealing with adult offenders, the judicial committee endeavours to reprove and restore the wrongdoer. However, if the young person is unrepentant, disfellowshipping action is taken.”
A decision on exclusion is made by the judicial committee of the congregation. An exclusion means that he or she is no longer considered a Jehovah's Witness. This decision is notified to the congregation where the person is a member, and the congregation is told to stop "interacting with that person." The Society describes exclusion as a "strong form of correction".
We shall assess whether the exclusion of a baptised minor violates Section 6 of the Religious Communities Act.
Pursuant to Section 6 of the Religious Communities Act, religious communities that encourage or support infringement of children's rights may be denied grants. In the preparatory work on Section 6 of the Religious Communities Act, negative social control of children was used as an example of violation of children's rights that may provide grounds for refusal of grants.
The County Governor understands the concept of negative social control as being various forms of supervision, pressure, threats and coercion exercised to ensure that individuals live in accordance with the norms of the family or group. The control is characterised by the fact that it is systematic and may violate the individual's rights in accordance with, among other things, the Convention on the Rights of the Child and Norwegian law.
The religion even describes this practice as a strong form of correction. Children in the congregation follow a number of rules, and the consequence of not following them is to be ostracized by the congregation and isolated from family and friends who are told not to associate with those excluded.
In their statement of 19.11.2021, in section 19, it states that the family ties do not cease on exclusion as long as they live in the same household. However, we understand that the child cannot have contact with other close family (including grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins) or friends. This comes in response to the fact that the child has violated the rules of the religious community. We believe that this may be perceived as pressure or coercion to make children behave in a certain way. The consequence of breaking the rules is therefore considered a form of punishment.
Against this background, the exclusion of baptised underage members is considered negative social control and an infringement of children's rights pursuant to Section 6 of the Religious Communities Act. Section 11 first paragraph (a) of the Religious Communities Regulations may provide a basis for denying the religion grants.
Exclusion, social isolation of uninjured (udøpte) minors
Children who have not yet been baptised but are members of the congregation may be given the status of "unbaptised publisher." If an unbaptised publisher commits a serious sin, these children can also be "banned" from the congregation. The child is not excluded, but the congregation is told to be careful about interacting with the child.
The book "Organized to do Jehovah’s Will" states the following about unbaptised publishers:
"Young children may also qualify as publishers of the good news
…
It would be appropriate for one of the parents to approach one of the elders on the congregation Service
Committee to discuss whether the child is qualified to become a publisher. The coordinator of the body of elders will arrange to have two elders (including one who is on the Service Committee) meet with the child and its believing parent or guardian. If the child has a basic knowledge of Bible truth and gives evidence of wanting to share in the ministry, this would indicate good progress has been made. After considering these and other factors similar to those that apply to adults, they can determine whether the child may be recognised as an unbaptised publisher.”Furthermore, the Society's handling of an unbaptised publisher committing a "serious sin" is explained:
“If an unbaptized wrongdoer is unrepentant after two elders have met with him and have tried to help him, then it is necessary to inform the congregation. A brief announcement is made, stating: "[Name of person] is no longer recognised as an unbaptised publisher." The congregation will then view the wrongdoer as a person of the world. Although the offender is not disfellowshipped, Christians exercise caution with regard to any association with him. (1 Cor. 15:33) No field service reports would be accepted from him.”
The County Governor considers that this practice is also regarded as negative social control. We consider social isolation as a form of punishment against the child. We believe this is an infringement of children's rights pursuant to Section 6 of the Religious Communities Act. Pursuant to Section 11, first paragraph (a) of the Religious Communities Regulations, this may provide a basis for denying the religion grants.
Whether the grant should be refused
We have concluded that Jehovah's Witnesses have violated sections 2 and 6 of the Religious Communities Act, and on these grounds the religious community may be denied grants pursuant to Section 11 of the Religious Communities Regulations. Whether the grant must be refused requires a concrete assessment, cf. "may". Pursuant to Section 11, second and third subsections, of the Religious Communities Regulations, the County Governor shall assess whether the circumstances are serious and whether they are intentional. The preparatory works point out that grants shall as a general rule be refused when the offences appear to be systematic and intentional.We believe that the offences, which violate both the right to freedom of religion and children's right to protection against violence is considered serious. The aforementioned practices are documented in books and in study articles published by the religion. The religious community has also recorded detailed rules for how a judicial committee works and how the committee will decide on issues of exclusion. The practice is followed systematically on the part of the religious community, and is notified to the members in several channels. On this basis, we conclude that the offences appear intentional.
After a concrete assessment, we find that the grants shall be refused, cf. Section 11 of the Religious Communities Regulations, Section 6 of the Religious Communities Act.
About truncation
Pursuant to Section 11, third subsection of the Religious Communities Regulations, the County Governor shall assess whether there may be grounds for truncating the grant, instead of denying the grant in full. Nevertheless, if the religion systematically, persistently or intentionally carried out, encouraged or supported violations mentioned in Section 6, first paragraph, of the Religious Communities Act, they will be fully denied grants.
We can't find grounds to truncate. The grant is refused in its entirety, cf. Section 11 of the Religious Communities Regulations third paragraph.
About the relationship to the right to freedom of religion
In your letter dated 19.11.2021, you explain why you believe your exclusion practices are protected by the right to freedom of religion. We would therefore like to remind you that the Religious Communities Act is a subsidy law, where the state has set certain conditions for religious communities to receive public funding. States are free to choose how they want to support religious communities, and have no positive obligations under the ECHR section 9 in terms of grants. ECHR has also stated that access to financial support ("additional funding") does not affect the individual's right to express ("manifest") their religion.
The purpose of Section 6 of the Religious Communities Act is to protect the rights and freedoms of others. The terms of the grants shall not be a means of limiting the room for manoeuvre for the religious and philosophical societies different theological views and values. As the clear starting point, there should be room for different opinions about what is a preferred moral or value "right". Therefore the right to refuse grants is limited to such violations as mentioned in the provision.
Right of Appeal
This decision can be appealed to the Ministry of Children and Family Affairs within 3 weeks. Any complaint must be sent to the County Governor. To file a complaint, use community attachment feature: "Submit additional information" in the digital solution, and select then "Appeal against a decision".
Sections 18 and 19 of the Public Administration Act contain the regulations for viewing the documents of the case.
Yours sincerely
Hege Skaanes Nyhus
Deputy Director
General Legal Department
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It begins norway no money for wt because of shunning
by Yomama inorganized shunning will stop when money stops.
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Earnest
The statement on the government website for Oslo and Viken follows:
Jehovah's Witnesses Denied State Grants for 2021
The County Governor of Oslo and Viken deny the Jehovah's Witnesses state grants for 2021 on the basis of the society's exclusion practice.
After receiving notifications from former members regarding the exclusion and exclusion of members, the Ministry of Children and Family Affairs has asked the County Governor of Oslo and Viken to review Jehovah's Witnesses' own accounts and publications. In this review, the County Governor has uncovered several violations of the Religious Communities Act.
Right to free opt-out
The exclusion practice means that members are refused contact with registered members. This will also apply to members who have voluntarily left the religion. In practice, this means that those who opt out cannot have contact with family and friends in the congregation. In our opinion, this prevents the right to free withdrawal, and is in violation of Section 2 of the Religious Communities Act.
Exclusion of children
The religion also allows for the exclusion of baptised minors. This means that children can be excluded if they violate the rules of the religious community. We believe this is negative social control and violates children's rights. Uninjured (udøpte) children who violate the rules of the religious community may be subjected to social isolation. This is also perceived as negative social control and violation of children's rights. Such treatment of children is contrary to Section 6 of the Religious Communities Act.
The County Governor's discretion – the supervisory authorities may refuse grants
Jehovah's Witnesses have defended the exclusion practice on several occasions. The denomination has detailed rules for how members should practice exclusion and social isolation towards these groups. The rules are notified to members, among other things, through books and study articles. We have assessed the offences as systematic and intentional, and have therefore chosen to refuse grants. This is in line with Section 11, third subsection of the Religious Communities Regulations. Read more in the attached decision.
I will post the "attached decision" in a separate post.
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James Arjuna
by jhine inreal long shot here, has anyone come across a james arjuna ?
he's a " scientist " jw who disses evolution and is really full of venom .
i just wondered if anyone actually knows him , he's american and a real charmer .
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Earnest
I don't know him from Adam, Jan, but his LinkedIn profile says he has a certificate of completion of several aspects of printing processes, electrical and electronics engineering from San Jose State University, 1966-1970. Whatever he learnt in engineering he seems to have applied to building hot tubs. I would hardly call him a scientist despite the high opinion he has of himself. I do not think he is representative of Jehovah's Witnesses in general, only of himself in particular.