Earnest

Joined

• started 51 topics
• posted 2,188 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by Earnest

• 
  27

  how many JW on this site

  by happy man in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the name of the site, jehovas vittness.com?.

  well sure we must have permission to say what we fell here, cant understan that ex say that this is ther site,.

  havent they red the heading.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Earnest

  I would describe myself as Jw rather than JW.

  Earnest
• 
  24

  The Earliest Christians

  by Adonai438 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i am posting quotes from the writtings of the earliest christians to share whether or not the jw statement of.

  the trinity not existing until the council of nicea is accurate or not.

  so these quotes are relevant to the trinity.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Earnest

  Hi Willy,

  My intention was certainly not to trigger any "it's too complicated don't think about it" programming, but the simplicity of the Gospel of John, and even the letter from Clement of Rome to the Corinthians, is in stark contrast to the Greek philosophy that shaped later Christian doctrine. Ask yourself, what do Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Arius, Alexander of Alexandria and Athanasius have in common? They were all from Alexandria, a leading centre for the study of Platonism and home of the Jewish philosopher Philo.

  How did this happen? It started with the Apologists (Aristides, Justin Martyr, Athenagoras, Tatian, Theophilus of Antioch) who wished to present Christianity to the culture of their day in such a way as to defend it against the charge of atheism. To the educated classes, they insisted that the truth of Christianity is that to which the pagan philosophers pointed. To do this they employed the concept of the Logos which was already known to both Judaism and Stoicism. According to the Apologists, Christ is the Logos, preexistent before the incarnation as the Father's mind or thought. They used the Stoic distinction between the Logos endiathetos (the immanent Word) and the Logos prophorikos (the expressed Word) to describe Christ's unity with the Father and his manifestation. Thereafter philosophy (and pragmatism) ruled and scripture was employed to support it.

  One of the more contentious expressions used in the Nicene Creed was that the Son was homoousios (of one substance) with the Father. After Constantine's death a number of councils were held that tried to omit the phrase homoousios, many preferring homoiousios (of like substance) to describe the relationship, because homoousios could mean they were the same (which, you say, is not a Trinitarian teaching at all). How did they reach agreement? A coalition of moderates known as the Homoiousians taught that the Godhead exists simultaneously in three modes of being or hypostases. All three have one nature, God. To describe how the one substance can be present at the same time in three, the analogy of a universal and its particulars is used. The difference between ousia (substance) and hypostasis (being) is the difference between universal and particular. Each hypostasis of the Godhead is set by its appropriate characteristics, just a each man represents the universal man. This understanding allowed the Eastern church to interpret homoousios (of one substance) in the light of homoiousios (of like substance), and a more acceptable doctrine was agreed at the Council of Constantinople in 381.

  So, having given some thought to this complicated doctrine you may understand better why I contrasted such philosophy with the simplicity of scripture. The fact is that their use of homoousios allowed those who believed they were of the same substance (tautoousios) to interpret it that way, and those who believed they were of like substance (homoiousios) to interpret it that way. Everyone went home thinking they had won the day. The winner, alas, was obfuscation and pragmatism, not truth.

  Earnest

  "Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" - Rev. Charles Dodgson
• 
  24

  The Earliest Christians

  by Adonai438 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i am posting quotes from the writtings of the earliest christians to share whether or not the jw statement of.

  the trinity not existing until the council of nicea is accurate or not.

  so these quotes are relevant to the trinity.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Earnest

  One reason our faith should be based on scripture alone is that it was very easy to give an "orthodox" [at the time] slant to writings in an age when everything was copied by hand. There is evidence that even scripture was altered ("The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture - The Effect of Early Christological Controversies on the Text of the New Testament" by Bart D.Ehrman [OUP,1993] gives many examples), but this was the exception in view of the reverence in which it was held and the dire warnings in the Bible about alteration.

  Nevertheless, we have to be guided by what we have and the extant writings of the early Christians do show their beliefs were far from the subequent definitions of who and what God is. Let it first be said that the Bible describes Jesus as God, most notably at John 1:1, and this has not been contended by the early Christians, the Arian movement of the fourth century, or JWs today. What is in dispute is whether he is the same as God the Father, and a related dispute is whether he was God while he was man. The trinity doctrine includes the teaching that "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet there are not three Gods, but one God." So with this in mind, let us consider the writings of the second century to which you refer. By the third century, the philosophical schools of Plato and Philo were in full swing and both Tertullian (within his lifetime) and Origen were declared heretics so although their beliefs were far from the Athanasian Creed I would not give them the same weight as earlier Christian writers.

  Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.
  "O Lord God almighty...I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

  This was, in fact, not Polycarp but Marcion quoting Polycarp in his 'Martyrdom'. At the beginning of this prayer he says : "O Lord God Almighty, Father of your blessed and beloved Son Jesus Christ, through whom we have been given knowledge of yourself..." and concludes it as you relate.
  In Polycarp's own writings he teaches that we are saved "by the will of God through Jesus Christ" and that Jesus was himself rescued by God from "the pangs of the grave" (chapter 1 of his letter to the Phillipians).
  In chapter 2 he writes "Put your trust in Him who raised our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead, and gave Him glory and a seat at His own right hand."
  In chapter 12 he writes "May the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest Jesus Christ Himself, the Son of God, help you to grow in faith and truth..."

  Justin Martyr (100-165). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.
  "For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

  This discussion of the baptism ceremony by Justin is simply a reflection of Matthew 28 and does not suggest anything beyond that.
  In contrast, in chapter 12 of his First Apology he speaks of "that Word no other than who, after God the Father, we know to be the most noble and just prince".
  In chapter 16 "And he [Jesus] thus persuaded us to worship God alone, and no other...and when one came to him and said, 'Good Master,' he answered, 'there is none good but God alone,' who made all things. Hence we render worship to God alone...".
  In chapter 32 "The Son or Logos is, 'the first power after God the Father and Sovereign Lord'".

  Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.
  "In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
  "We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

  As previously noted it should come as no surprise that Jesus is described as God, the issue simply being whether he is one and the same or subordinate to God the Father.
  In chapter 3 of this letter to the Ephesians Ignatius writes "I venture to recommend an action that reflects the mind of God. For we have no life apart from Jesus Christ; and as he represents the mind of the Father, so our bishops, even those who are stationed in the remotest parts of the world, represent the mind of Jesus Christ."
  In chapter 5 "If I myself reached such intimacy with your bishop in a brief space of time...how much more fortunate I must count you, who are as inseparably one with him as the church is with Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ with the Father."
  He concludes this letter in chapter 20 "I hope to write you a further letter-if, in answer to your prayers, Jesus Christ allows it, and God so wills-in which I will continue this preliminary account for you of God's design for the New Man, Jesus Christ...Farewell to you, in God the Father and in Jesus Christ, who is our common hope."

  Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.
  "The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all...'" (Against Heresies X.l)

  Again, it is no surprise that Jesus is described as God but would be if he were equated with his Father. On the contrary, in this passage he distinguishes between Jesus and his Father just as Paul does in his letter to the Philippians where he says that "every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father", or "to the will of the invisible Father".
  Further, in chapter 22 of this book against the Valentinians he specifies the one rule of faith, namely that "there is one God Almighty who created all things by His Word...He is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, as we shall show."

  The facts are that none of the early Christian writers taught that Jesus was the same as his Father, and it is only in the fourth century that the Athanasian schism asserted they were the same substance. That, of course, is another age and far from the simplicity of the time of Christ.

  Earnest

  "Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandernatch!" - Rev. Charles Dodgson
• 
  4

  A Balancing Act

  by Earnest in

  1. social
  2. humour

  once upon a time in the kingdom of heaven, god went missing for six days.

  eventually, michael the archangel found him on the seventh day, resting.. he inquired of god, "where have you been?".

  god sighed a deep sigh of satisfaction and proudly pointed downwards through the clouds.. "look michael, look what i've made.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Earnest

  Liverpudlians are called scousers, KJV. And now that I think of it, they did have some musical talent in the 1960's.

  Earnest
• 
  4

  A Balancing Act

  by Earnest in

  1. social
  2. humour

  once upon a time in the kingdom of heaven, god went missing for six days.

  eventually, michael the archangel found him on the seventh day, resting.. he inquired of god, "where have you been?".

  god sighed a deep sigh of satisfaction and proudly pointed downwards through the clouds.. "look michael, look what i've made.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Earnest

  Once upon a time in the Kingdom of Heaven, God went missing for six days. Eventually, Michael the archangel found him on the seventh day, resting.

  He inquired of God, "Where have you been?"

  God sighed a deep sigh of satisfaction and proudly pointed downwards through the clouds.

  "Look Michael, look what I've made.", God said.

  Archangel Michael looked puzzled and said, "What is it?"

  "It's a planet," replied God, "and I've put LIFE on it. I'm going to
  call it Earth and it's going to be a great place of balance."

  "Balance?" inquired Michael, still confused. God explained, pointing to different parts of Earth,

  "For example, North America will be a place of great opportunity and
  wealth while South America is going to be poor; the Middle East over there will be a hotspot and Russia will be a cold spot. Over there I've placed a continent of white people and over there is a continent of black people,"

  God continued, pointing to different countries. "This one will be
  extremely hot and arid while this one will be very cold and covered in ice."

  The Archangel, impressed by God's work, then pointed to a small area
  of land and said, "What's that ?"

  "Ah," said God. "That's Manchester, the most glorious place on Earth. There are beautiful people, 2 great football teams and it is the home of the worlds greatest musical talent. The people from Manchester are going to be modest, intelligent and humorous and they're going to be found travelling the world. They'll be extremely sociable, hard-working and high-achieving, and they will be known throughout the world as diplomats and carriers of peace."

  Michael gasped in wonder and admiration but then proclaimed, "What
  about balance, God? You said there will be BALANCE!"

  God replied wisely, "Wait until you see the wankers I'm putting right next to them in Liverpool!."

  Earnest (getting into Simon's good books)
• 
  14

  More Underwater Civilisations

  by Earnest in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  at 21:00 gmt tonight there is a programme on channel 4 entitled "flooded kingdoms of the ice age".

  author graham hancock scours the seas for evidence of the earliest civilisations, which he believes were submerged when the polar ice caps melted at the end of the last ice age.

  in tonight's programme hancock makes some finds off the west coast of malta and along the "bimini road", a megalithic structure in the atlantic.. no doubt those who believe in a universal flood will continue to do so and those who don't will not, but it will add to the larger picture that we have on this subject.. earnest.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Earnest

  The gist of the programme was the idea that there is evidence of an ancient civilisation that was flooded at the end of the ice age. As the ice sheet receded and the ice melted he maintains that there were three surges of flooding water which raised the sea-level by 400 feet and covered an overall area larger than the continents of North America and Australia combined. He claims that these occurred 7, 11 and 14 thousand years ago and that the second surge was the factual basis for Plato's account of Atlantis.

  He referred to a number of underwater ruins from antiquity including :

  1. Sonar readings in the Gulf of Cambay, India which reveal two underwater cities each covering ten square miles which were flooded about 7000 years ago.

  2. A gigantic stone circle near Kerama off the coast of Okinawa, Japan.

  3. Massive submerged walls near the Pescadores off the coast of Taiwan. No trace remains of the civilisation that built it.

  He also referred to evidence of civilisation underwater between Malta and Sicily and suggested Malta may have been under the rule of the civilisation of Atlantis. Some time was spent on the Bimini "road" which are parallel rows of submerged stone blocks off the coast of the Bahamas but I found this evidence unconvincing.

  There is more to come this Monday evening, same time same TV channel for those in the UK who may be interested.

  Earnest

  "Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" - Rev. Charles Dodgson
• 
  61

  What was the JW breaking point 4 U?

  by ashitaka in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  we have a thread that asks why we became jw's, so i became curious as to why some of us have left.

  what was the last straw for you?.

  mine was the treatment of my wife.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Earnest

  Reading "Wild Swans" by Jung Chang
• 
  14

  More Underwater Civilisations

  by Earnest in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  at 21:00 gmt tonight there is a programme on channel 4 entitled "flooded kingdoms of the ice age".

  author graham hancock scours the seas for evidence of the earliest civilisations, which he believes were submerged when the polar ice caps melted at the end of the last ice age.

  in tonight's programme hancock makes some finds off the west coast of malta and along the "bimini road", a megalithic structure in the atlantic.. no doubt those who believe in a universal flood will continue to do so and those who don't will not, but it will add to the larger picture that we have on this subject.. earnest.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Earnest

  Fred,

  Cats and water don't mix. You'll need to look to Egypt, where there is no account of global flooding, for a large selection of felines.

  Earnest

  "Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" - Rev. Charles Dodgson
• 
  14

  More Underwater Civilisations

  by Earnest in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  at 21:00 gmt tonight there is a programme on channel 4 entitled "flooded kingdoms of the ice age".

  author graham hancock scours the seas for evidence of the earliest civilisations, which he believes were submerged when the polar ice caps melted at the end of the last ice age.

  in tonight's programme hancock makes some finds off the west coast of malta and along the "bimini road", a megalithic structure in the atlantic.. no doubt those who believe in a universal flood will continue to do so and those who don't will not, but it will add to the larger picture that we have on this subject.. earnest.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Earnest

  At 21:00 GMT tonight there is a programme on Channel 4 entitled "Flooded Kingdoms of the Ice Age". Author Graham Hancock scours the seas for evidence of the earliest civilisations, which he believes were submerged when the polar ice caps melted at the end of the last Ice Age. In tonight's programme Hancock makes some finds off the west coast of Malta and along the "Bimini Road", a megalithic structure in the Atlantic.

  No doubt those who believe in a universal flood will continue to do so and those who don't will not, but it will add to the larger picture that we have on this subject.

  Earnest

  "Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" - Rev. Charles Dodgson.
• 
  10

  The Ark a question can anybody help????

  by moneypenny in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  while listening to a radio programme this morning i heard an anglican clergyman, whilst relating the account of noah and the flood, say that a hole had been made in the side of the ark and this related to jesus having a wound inflicted in his side too, therefore jesus is the spiritual equivalent of the ark in noahs day.. now i prefer that version rather than the jw line that the organisation is the spiritual ark.

  i have read the account in genesis both in the living bible and the king james and cannot find any mention of the ark ever having a hole inflicted in its side.. .

  i wasn't paying much attention to the radio it was just going on in the backround but this got my attention because i was brought up a methodist and i seem to recall something about this in my dim and distant past.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Earnest

  AGuest,

  Many thanks for your good wishes and my hope is also that we all have a measure of peace.

  However, I have to say that the scripture does not speak as clearly to me as it does to you. You may well be right in understanding that the various features of the flood and the ark prefigured the christian arrangement as many believe. To me there are just a few parallels that are certain:

  There is the saying of Jesus where he said "Just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of man..."

  And there is the comparison of Peter where he said of the ark "That which corresponds to this is also now saving you, namely, baptism..."

  It is true that Jesus said "I am the door..." but I have some doubt that he was specifically referring to the door of the ark. Much can be made of allegory and of OT types prefiguring Christ and christianity. And the Christian writers clearly applied scripture in that way as the letter to the Hebrews clearly shows. But while it is interesting to speculate I rather think that anything beyond scripture only serves to confirm existing prejudice and belief rather than provide a sound basis for faith.

  Earnest

  "Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun the frumious Bandersnatch!" - Rev. Charles Dodgson