Posts by Earnest

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

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colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

Earnest

Sea Breeze : Unitarians frequently state that 1+1+1 = 3 not one. Yet they have no problem believeing that H2O can exist as a solid, gas, or liquid and yet be one substance.

A belief that Jesus, like water, can exist in three states but remain the same substance is the "heresy" of modalism, or Sabellianism, which teaches that God is one person appearing in three different modes. This was held by some early Jewish Christian groups but is generally held to be heresy by orthodox christianity today.

I concur with peacefulpete that if you want to discuss the nature of man it would be more productive to start a thread on it yourself.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

Earnest

peacefulpete : The [Logos] concepts were much older and pervasive than a single author. It is entirely possible the author of John never read Philo but was drawing from a larger milieu of thought.

Not only entirely possible but quite likely. Was it not the Stoics who identified the logos spermatikos as the cosmic source of order? How easy for an educated Jew to connect the Logos of John to this "larger milieu of thought", to this cosmic source of order, especially long before any councils had decided what they had to believe.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

Earnest

aqwsed12345 : These authors [Bart Ehrman, Adolf von Harnack, Edward Gibbon] selectively focus on outlier groups or speculative reconstructions, neglecting the overwhelming evidence of continuity in apostolic teaching.

I am not surprised that you reject Bart Ehrman, but Adolf von Harnack was the leading early church historian in Germany, and indeed everywhere else in his time, a stupendously learned scholar. It is no exaggeration to say that he had read every available source regarding early Christianity in many languages and presents all the evidence up to 325 CE, which, as a collection of evidence, has not been surpassed in 100 years.

No matter. It seems you will reject everyone who does not project your worldview regardless of their expertise. But since you say his "works are heavily criticized for imposing modern skepticism on ancient sources", perhaps you could support your allegation with an example.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

Earnest

peacefulpete : It is very doubtful that the WT would use Gnostic theology as support for their own.

Agreed. However, I found your earlier point about Philo interesting because you had previously said the JW angelology/christology had been "eruditely and thoroughly refuted". Yet, regarding Philo you said

The linking of the Jewish notion of Word, Glory, Name and the Greek concept of Logos implies that the Logos was on earth in patriarchal times leading the Israelites through the wilderness and dwelling in the tabernacle. In the same manner Philo conceived of the Word, Glory, Name and angel in the OT stories, that is how he conceived the Logos.

Do you not think that those Jews familiar with Philo's Logos philosophy would have associated the Logos of John with the angel of the Lord who lead the Israelites through the wilderness, appeared to Abraham, etc etc. In Darrell Hannah's Michael and Christ: Michael Traditions and Angel Christology in Early Christianity he discusses Philo as well as Jewish Apocalyptic Literature, Qumran Literature, Rabbinic and Hekhalot Literature and it seems obvious that early Jewish Christianity identified the pre-existent Logos with the angel of the Lord.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

Earnest

aqwsed12345 : Just look at the Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-orthodox_Christianity

Interesting article. This reminds me I should also have recommended Walter Bauer's "Orthodoxy and Heresy in Earliest Christianity" for a clearer view of the diversity of early Christianity.

In a review of its reception in the years 2000 - 2010, the Harvard Theological Review said :

First published in 1934, Walter Bauer's [Orthodoxy and Heresy in Earliest Christianity] warned against simply equating the words “orthodoxy” and “heresy” with the notions of majority and minority and with the process of deviation from correct belief to wrong belief. Bauer sought to show that in the first two Christian centuries orthodoxy and heresy did not stand in relation to one another as primary and secondary. He tried to prove that in many regions what came to be known in the ecclesiastical tradition as “heresy” was in fact the original manifestation of Christianity. For example, according to Bauer, the major figures in earliest Christianity at Edessa were the “heretics” Marcion, Bar Daisan, and Mani. In Egypt a gnostic form of Christianity appears to have been dominant before A.D. 200, and in Asia Minor “orthodox” leaders such as Ignatius and Polycarp waged only moderately successful battles against gnosticism and judaizing Christianity.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

Earnest

aqwsed12345 : Earnest’s argument conflates heretical misuses of "God" with the orthodox affirmation of Jesus’ deity.

To speak of 'heretical' and 'orthodox' in the first three centuries is meaningless as what was "orthodox" differed from group to group. I intend to write a post showing the diversity of early Christianity but, in the meantime, would refer you to Bart Ehrman's "The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture", Edward Gibbon's "The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" (chapters 15 & 16), Adolf von Harnack's "Mission and Expansion of Christianity in the First Three Centuries", or Harmut Leppin's "The Early Christians".

While I think your summary of the Ebionites through the lens of their critics is fairly accurate, your view of what you term orthodoxy is obviously partisan.

One other point I would like to put to rest as you have not responded to my post enquiring about "the majority Latin manuscripts" which include et deum (Lord and God Jesus Christ) in the twelfth chapter of Polycarp's Letter to the Philippians, is that in fact the minority include et deum ("and God"), the majority omit it.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

Earnest

peacefulpete : All of these forms however referred to 'Christ' as God.

Most of them I agree. However, there were a number of Jewish Christian movements which did not recognise his divinity. The Ebionites of which there were a number of sects, possibly the Nazarenes although the evidence is divided. Some of the gnostic movements.

Paul of Samosata taught that Christ was created, as did Lucian of Antioch, as did Arius and those who supported him. So, speaking of Christ as 'God', or I should say 'god', meant different things to different people.

113

Luke 23:43 the NWT

by Ade in

luke 23:43 - and jesus said to him, "positively i say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.

nwt places comma here , giving a totally different meaning to the verse.

now the average jw uses this to back their doctrine and it seems in itself virtually impossible to reason with them on it.

Earnest

Earnest : "The interpretation of Luke 23:43 is a matter of exegesis, not textual criticism."
aqwsed12345 : While exegesis determines meaning, the textual evidence overwhelmingly favors the traditional rendering.

Are there any Greek, Latin or Coptic manuscripts from the first four centuries which punctuate Luke 23:43 in any way? If so, which manuscripts, because I have seen none except, possibly, codex Vaticanus with the hypostigme we have discussed.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

Earnest

aqwsed12345 : While some Latin manuscripts [of Polycarp] omit et deum, the majority include it, and these manuscripts are based on an earlier Greek source no longer extant.

There are nine Latin manuscripts which preserve chapter 12 of Polycarp's Letter to the Philippians. Both Lightfoot and Holmes list these as : r (11th century), t, c, b, and o (twelfth century), p and v (fourteenth century), f and m (fifteenth century).

Of these nine manuscripts, please specify which include et deum, as I suggest you are misleading when you say the majority include it.

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

Earnest

Ha ha. Not me. Just to say that scholars are uncertain what language Tatian used, Greek or Syriac, as everything we know of it is indirectly from other works, especially a commentary by Ephrem the Syrian in the fourth century.