Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze 405 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Blotty

    Textual criticism recognizes differences between deliberate alterations and inadvertent scribal errors. Even if (!) et deum were added later, this doesn't mean the entire letter is inauthentic or that the theological message of early Christianity was fundamentally altered. The presence of similar high Christology in Polycarp’s contemporaries, like Ignatius, demonstrates that the belief in Jesus’ deity was not dependent on isolated phrases but was a widespread, well-attested doctrine. Accusing the entire tradition of manipulation based on one hypothetical instance is an overreach.

    Origen himself acknowledged some alterations, but these were limited to his opponents or scribes with theological biases. However, the argument doesn't generalize. Early Christian communities were vigilant about preserving authentic texts. For example, when the Long Recension of Ignatius' letters emerged, it was recognized as inauthentic and was eventually dismissed by scholars. The preservation of the Middle Recension demonstrates the early Church’s efforts to maintain textual integrity. Theoretical possibilities (“what stops them?”) aren't evidence of widespread corruption; they’re speculative.

    The pronoun αὐτῷ in John 20:28 unambiguously refers to Jesus. Your attempt to minimize its significance doesn't hold. Thomas’ declaration, “My Lord and my God!” (ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου), directly addresses Jesus, as αὐτῷ makes clear. The structure of the Greek grammar, particularly the article "ὁ" (the), shows that Thomas is making a direct and personal confession about Jesus' identity as both Lord and God. Claims that this is a general doxology lack linguistic and contextual support.

    The vocative form of κύριος (κύριε) is indeed used in direct address, but the nominative ὁ κύριος can also function vocatively in Koine Greek, particularly in expressions of high reverence. In John 20:28, the nominative case serves both theological emphasis and direct address. Revelation 7:14 involves an angel, but the context clearly differentiates the angel from the Lamb (Jesus). Angels are messengers; they do not share the divine identity of the κύριος (Lord) invoked by Thomas in John 20:28.

    Some marginal translations might interpret it as a doxology, but the original Greek supports a direct address to Jesus. The context—Thomas responding to Jesus’ invitation to touch His wounds—strongly indicates a personal address. The confession aligns with John’s theological emphasis on Christ’s divinity throughout the Gospel (e.g., John 1:1, 10:30). Rendering it as a doxology undermines the passage’s explicit Christological focus.

    Scholars like Daniel Wallace and A.T. Robertson, widely respected in textual criticism and Greek grammar, support the interpretation of John 20:28 as affirming Jesus’ deity. While theological biases exist across all interpretations, the weight of scholarly consensus and linguistic analysis supports the traditional reading of this passage. It is not merely a matter of opinion but of consistent methodology in examining the text.

    While δεσπότης and κύριος can overlap in meaning, their usage differs. δεσπότης typically conveys the sense of a master in a hierarchical relationship, such as a master over slaves (e.g., 1 Timothy 6:1-2). κύριος, however, carries broader connotations, including divine lordship. In the Septuagint, κύριος is consistently used to translate Yahweh, emphasizing God’s covenantal lordship. The apostles’ deliberate choice of κύριος for Jesus signifies His divine authority and identity, consistent with Old Testament usage for Yahweh.

    Origen’s use of “divine” for angels refers to their participation in God’s glory, not their ontological nature as full deities. This is consistent with early Christian theology, which distinguishes between God’s uncreated essence and the derivative, participatory “divinity” of created beings. Angels are "divine" insofar as they reflect God’s holiness and serve His purposes, but they are not θεός in the sense applied to Christ in John 1:1 or Thomas’ confession.

    Moses’ designation as “elohim” (Exodus 7:1) is metaphorical, reflecting his role as God’s representative before Pharaoh. Psalm 82 similarly refers to human judges as “elohim” due to their divine appointment, but this is a far cry from the ontological deity ascribed to Christ. Jesus’ identity as θεός (God) in John 1:1 and John 20:28 is presented as unique and unshared, aligning Him with Yahweh, not with metaphorical or lesser uses of "god."

    It is a complete anachronism to translate the Hebrew term “elohim” in the oldest OT books before the Second Temple period, which is clearly used in connection with creatures, into Greek as θεός, θεοί, since here it simply means "mighty ones." In pure monotheism there are no such semi-"divine" beings, but one is either completely uncreated and omnipotent God and always has been, or is not at all and never was and never can be in any sense. But of course, the modernist Christian-bashers and the Arians who abuse their researches assume that this earlier pre-Isaiah usage, the eradication of which was already begun in the LXX (e.g. Psalm 8:5: “elohim” -> ἄγγελοι, and NOT θεοί) is also the guiding principle for the time of the apostles, and that θεός is also such a generic term with no special meaning, which can be boldly applied to the Archangel Michael, without any connotation to the actual deity in the proper sense. This approach ignores the principle of progressive revelation as well, there is no longer any such thing as non-YHWH, non-ominpotent “elohim” or θεός, not at all. God gradually led Israel to monotheism, the first step being that He commanded them to worship YHWH alone. It was not yet established on such a fundamental level that other gods did not exist at all. However, once that became evident, the use of the name YHWH no longer made sense, since it only meant "He who is". When it was already established on a fundamental level that other gods simply do not exist, and whenever we say “God” or “Lord,” we only can mean the One God, the Eternal Creator, the primum movens, since we cannot mean anything or anyone else. Κύριος is no longer just the own national god of the Jewish people, but the only one that deserves the names "God" and "Lord."

    To translate the term “elohim” simply as "mighty ones" into Ancient Greek in a way that avoids the monadic sense of θεός (God in the proper, monadic, and monotheistic sense), one might consider using terms that convey strength, power, or divine authority without necessarily implying the exclusive monotheistic connotation. Here are a few possible options:

    1. δυνάμεις (dynamis, plural: dynamies) – This term means "powers" or "forces" and conveys a sense of mighty entities or forces without strictly identifying them as gods.

    2. ἄρχοντες (archontes) – Meaning "rulers" or "authorities," this could reflect beings with dominion or significant authority, aligning with a henotheistic or monolatrist interpretation.

    3. κράτος (kratos, plural: krateis) – This refers to strength or might. While not typically personified, in a plural sense it could convey "mighty ones."

    4. ἥρωες (heroes) – In the sense of semi-divine beings or mighty figures from mythology, this could also fit, though it leans more toward human-like entities.

    5. ἰσχυροί (ischyroi) – Derived from ἰσχύς (ischys, meaning "strength" or "might"), this word directly means "mighty ones" or "strong ones."

    For the specific context of Exodus 7:1 or Psalm 82, δυνάμεις or ἰσχυροί might be the best choices, as they emphasize the aspect of might or power without necessarily connoting formal divinity in the strict sense implied by θεός. ἄρχοντες might work well in a context emphasizing authority or rulership. Colossians 1:16 uses terms like θρόνοι (thronoi), κυριότητες (kyriotētes), ἀρχαί (archai), and ἐξουσίαι (exousiai) to describe a hierarchy of cosmic powers or authorities, which could be very relevant when trying to render "elohim" in Greek with a broader connotation than θεός. These terms provide a nuanced vocabulary for expressing a range of powerful entities without strictly aligning them with monotheistic God (in the θεός sense). Here’s how these terms compare to the "mighty ones" idea of “elohim”:

    1. θρόνοι (thronoi) – "Thrones," emphasizing a high-ranking or exalted authority, potentially linking to heavenly or cosmic rulers.
    2. κυριότητες (kyriotētes) – "Dominions" or "lordships," indicating spheres of dominion or powerful rule.
    3. ἀρχαί (archai) – "Principalities" or "beginnings," often used for primordial or foundational powers, which can connote both authority and a cosmic role.
    4. ἐξουσίαι (exousiai) – "Authorities," highlighting a legal or delegated power, perhaps akin to divine or cosmic governance.

    To reflect the "mighty ones" concept in Exodus 7:1 or Psalm 82, the terms from Colossians 1:16 might work well depending on the context:

    • ἀρχαί (archai) could emphasize primordial authority or foundational powers, aligning with the more ancient concept of elohim as significant yet subordinate beings.
    • κυριότητες (kyriotētes) could reflect rulership or dominion, especially if the emphasis is on divine governance.
    • ἐξουσίαι (exousiai) might convey "mighty ones" in the sense of wielding authority delegated by a higher power, fitting contexts like Psalm 82, where God presides over the assembly of divine beings.

    For Exodus 7:1, where Moses is made “elohim" to the Pharaoh, ἐξουσία (authority) or κυριότης (dominion) might convey Moses’ empowered status effectively, as these terms stress the bestowed nature of his power rather than an innate divinity.

    Describing Jesus as "a divine Person" fits Trinitarian theology, as the Son is fully God, sharing the divine essence with the Father and the Spirit. However, the Greek text of John 20:28 goes beyond acknowledging Jesus as merely "a divine Person"; it explicitly affirms Him as ὁ θεός (the God), linking Him directly with the monotheistic God of Israel.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    Aristides (Greek Philosopher turned Christian) wrote to the Emperor Hadrian and gave a pretty good synopsis of core Christian beliefs in 125 AD.

    He wrote:

    The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the gospel, as it is called, which a short time was preached among them; and you also if you will read therein, may perceive the power which belongs to it. This Jesus, then, was born of the race of the Hebrews; and he had twelve disciples in order that the purpose of his incarnation might in time be accomplished. But he himself was pierced by the Jews, and he died and was buried; and they say that after three days he rose and ascended to heaven (Apol. 2, Syriac).

    Aristides makes it clear that Christians affirm a number of key truths:

    1. The divinity of Jesus: “God came down from heaven” In the mind of Aristides, Jesus is not an angel, or a semi-divine being, but the very God of heaven itself.

    2. The incarnation: “clothed himself with flesh.” In very vivid language, the author affirms that Jesus is God enfleshed; he took upon himself a real human body (contra the Docetists).

    3. The virgin birth: “from a Hebrew virgin.” This doctrine flows naturally from the prior two. If Jesus is God, and he took on human flesh, then his conception would be distinctive from other human beings.

    4. The authority of the Gospels: “taught in the gospel…and you also if you read therein, may perceive the power which belongs to it.” Notice for Aristides, there are books called a “gospel” which you can “read” to learn more about the person of Jesus. Moreover, these gospels contain a certain “power” which the reader can discern.

    5. The authority of the apostles: “and he had twelve disciples.” Aristides recognizes that Jesus had an authority structure through the twelve that was necessary “so that the purpose of his incarnation might in time be accomplished.”

    6. His death on the cross: “pierced by the Jews.” This is a clear reference to Jesus’ crucifixion under Pontius Pilate at the request of the Jewish leadership.

    7. His resurrection: “after three days he rose.” Jesus did not stay in the grave but was raised from the dead.

    8. His ascension: “ascended into heaven.” Jesus returned to his former heavenly home, in a position of power and glory.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Jesus was an angelic being in heaven before he came to earth as a human. He is God’s firstborn, knows God better than anyone else, and is totally obedient to God. After he gave his life as a human to save sinful humans, he resumed his heavenly life in an even more exalted position, but always in subjection and to the glory of God. Jesus, as the image of the invisible God, so perfectly reflects God’s character that he could say that anyone who saw him had seen his Father also. God’s thoughts are unsearchable, but we can have the mind of Christ. (1 Cor 2.16)

  • peacefulpete
  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @slimboyfat
    1. The Claim: Jesus Was an Angelic Being

    The assertion that Jesus is an angelic being conflicts with key biblical texts that affirm His deity and unique status.

    Hebrews 1:5-6: “For to which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my Son; today I have begotten you’? Or again, ‘I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son’? And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, ‘Let all God’s angels worship him.’”

    This passage explicitly differentiates Jesus from angels, affirming His superiority over them. Angels worship Jesus, demonstrating that He is not merely one of them but their Creator (cf. Colossians 1:16-17).

    John 1:1-3: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.”

    The Word (Jesus) is explicitly described as God and the Creator of all things, which includes angels. If He created angels, He cannot be one.

    2. The Claim: Jesus Is the Firstborn

    The term “firstborn” (πρωτότοκος, prototokos) is often misunderstood. It does not imply that Jesus was created but refers to His preeminence and unique relationship with the Father.

    Colossians 1:15-17: “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.”

    The context clarifies that “firstborn” signifies supremacy and authority, not temporal sequence. Jesus is the Creator of “all things,” which would include Himself if He were a created being—an illogical contradiction.

    3. The Claim: Jesus Is “Always (?!?!) Subordinate to God

    The claim that Jesus is eternally subordinate ignores the context of His incarnation and His eternal divine nature.

    Philippians 2:6-7: “Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.”

    Jesus voluntarily took on a subordinate role in His incarnation, but this does not diminish His eternal equality with the Father. His submission was functional, not ontological.

    John 10:30: “I and the Father are one.”

    Jesus claims unity with the Father, not subordination. This unity encompasses essence and purpose, affirming His equality with God.

    4. The Claim: Jesus Reflects God’s Character but Is Not God

    While Jesus perfectly reflects God’s character, Scripture goes further, identifying Him as fully divine.

    John 20:28: “Thomas answered him, ‘My Lord and my God!’”

    Thomas directly addresses Jesus as “My God,” a clear affirmation of Jesus’ deity.

    Colossians 2:9: “For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.”

    This verse explicitly states that Jesus embodies the full nature of God, not merely reflects it.

    5. The Role of 1 Corinthians 2:16

    The citation of 1 Corinthians 2:16—“But we have the mind of Christ”—is used to support the idea that Jesus reflects God. However, this verse emphasizes believers’ transformation into Christ’s image through the Holy Spirit, not a limitation on Jesus’ divine nature.

    Conclusion

    The biblical evidence overwhelmingly refutes the claim that Jesus is an “angelic being” or merely a reflection of God. Instead, the Scriptures consistently affirm that:

    1. Jesus is not an angel but the Creator of angels and the object of their worship.
    2. The term “firstborn” denotes His preeminence, not creation.
    3. Jesus’ subordination during His earthly ministry was voluntary and does not negate His eternal equality with the Father.
    4. Jesus is fully God, as affirmed by Thomas and Paul.

    The claim reflects a misunderstanding of biblical terminology and context. The apostles’ language—using terms like theos (God) and kyrios (Lord)—was deliberately chosen to affirm Jesus’ full deity, not merely a secondary or subordinate role.

  • Earnest
    Earnest
    aqwsed12345 : While some Latin manuscripts [of Polycarp] omit et deum, the majority include it, and these manuscripts are based on an earlier Greek source no longer extant.

    There are nine Latin manuscripts which preserve chapter 12 of Polycarp's Letter to the Philippians. Both Lightfoot and Holmes list these as : r (11th century), t, c, b, and o (twelfth century), p and v (fourteenth century), f and m (fifteenth century).

    Of these nine manuscripts, please specify which include et deum, as I suggest you are misleading when you say the majority include it.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    The whole debate is the result of third or 4th generation (of mostly Gentile) 'Christians' mistaking Gospel narratives as history. Once they went down that path, controversy exploded. Various rationalizations emerged, varying forms of Docetism, Adoptionism and Dyophysitism (and 50 other isms) each offered alternatives for how an ineffable God could also be a man. All of these forms however referred to 'Christ' as God. Even the Arianism that JWs like to point at understood Christ, as Logos, as an emanation of God. Writers like Eusebius often resorted to semantics and even red herring arguments to misrepresent that belief, but that is the nature of sectarianism.

    The Second Power concept and the related Logos theology is the keystone to all of this.

    Marcionism for example seems a radical departure, but it wasn't really. The central distinction between Marcion's view and Justin Martyr's was the roles assigned the High God and his emanations, Yahweh and Christ. Almost all the theological detail is lost to us, as all we have are snippets from his detractors. However, in the end Marcion too, thought of 'Christ' as God in a sense similar to Justin, or Tatian, or Valentinus, or Eusebius or the author of John. None of these writers agreed in detail but they were all attempting to make sense of the idea of God becoming man.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    The whole debate is the result of third or 4th generation (of mostly Gentile) 'Christians' mistaking Gospel narratives as history.

    PP & SBF,

    Mountains of evidence has been presented to you supporting the opposite of your conclusion in this thread.

    Can you please state what, if any, historical evidence would be sufficient for you ?

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    SeaBreeze, ...you and aqwsed have eruditely and thoroughly refuted the JW angelology/christology. I agree with your conclusion that all ancient witnesses shared some type of belief that Christ was God.

    However, it is also true that none of the ancient witnesses shared an identical formulation of that belief, and that even the texts favored by the proto-orthodoxy likewise betray a confusing blend of subordinationism and divinity. As I said, it is self-evident that the ambiguity of the Gospels stories were the very source of many of the divisions.

    I am also certain the Logos/second power concept is an overlooked foundation of Christianity and the key to understanding Pauline and Gospel descriptions, and I don't think that is terribly surprising or controversial.

    While naturally Christians might prefer a supernatural spontaneous origin, the actual evidence shows a very human story of developing theology centuries in the making.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    the actual evidence shows a very human story of developing theology centuries in the making.

    So, what kind of evidence would it take for you to conclude the deity of Christ was not a 'developing human story", but rather an account of God manifesting in the flesh?

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit