Posts by AllTimeJeff

27

What determined the path you took once you came to your senses?

by donny in

i have been reading a lot of posts over the past few weeks and noticed how some folks have taken the atheist/agnostic path, while others have replaced their zeal for the society into one of another faith.

what led you to take the path you did?.

for me, i just began doing a lot of deep thinking and trying to come to the most logical conclusion based on the facts that i had before me.. as a result, i have taken the agnostic path because it makes the most sense to me.

AllTimeJeff

My sole criteria came from a quote actually attributed to J F Rutherford in the WT. I sat up and took note of it constantly:

***

w9710/1p.6KnowJehovah—ThePersonalGod***

It took Rutherford several years of careful research to rebuild his faith in a personal God. He worked, he said, from the premise that "that which cannot satisfy the mind has no right to satisfy the heart." Christians "must be sure that the Scriptures in which they believe are true," Rutherford explained, adding: "They must know the foundation on which they stand."—See 2 Timothy 3:16, 17.

I thought that this was supposed to be what its all about. Obviously I learned through bitter experience that it isn't. But I tricked myself into believing that JW dogma can satisfy the mind.

When I left, I was in no hurry to join another group, and I am still not. But I try to be pragmatic about it. I consider myself agnostic not because of anger or bitterness toward thiests, but because it is the most intellectually honest position to be. No person of faith can prove anything about what they believe. (whether that belief is that the bible is gods word, Jesus was born of a virgin and died for our sins and then resurrected, to even the most personal things such as "god spoke to me". You can say it, but you can't prove it) Hence the need for "faith". As several have noted on this board, if you can see and prove it, you don't need faith that it exists. For this reason, I do believe that unreasoning zealous faith that is promoted and/or enforced by other people and groups is dangerous. (Read Sam Harris "The End of Faith")

I think that athiests have nothing to prove about their stated disbelief in the existence of god. The reason for their stated disbelief is a lack of evidence of god, so what else do they need to prove? Thiests often say "You can't disprove god". This kind of circular reasoning is designed for one thing, so thiests can continue to believe as they wish and to blunt the real problems and logical inconsistencies in their own belief system. It is as if instead of acknowledging the imperfection of their own beliefs, many still are determined to yell it out because they don't want to admit the possibility (probability) that their faith isn't correct. (or at least not the only one that out there) I think the burden of proof and evidence is definitely on those who say an invisible deity is in the heavens and demands certain conduct of us. Better be prepared to prove it!

Having said that, from my point of view, there is a level of "spirituality" (for lack of a better word, please work with me on it) that all of us have. (i.e. the need for a meaning and purpose to our life, that we matter, etc) I do see from time to time angry ex JW's. Whether they are thiests, athiests, or not, the anger isn't healthy over the long term. (short term is is absolutely necesarry) That isn't a criticism, just an observation. It's not my place to judge as I don't know what goes on in anyones head, but my guess is that anger comes in large part due to their own identity being robbed, that purpose in life and hope for the future being found false. That leaves a BIG void. I found that it true with me still. Do I consider the possibility that having my own thoughts about god could help me? Sure! And I do honor the value that personal faith has for some people. But that doens't mean that it works for everyone. And it doesn't mean that it should be promoted as the end all, that life SHOULD include god. That is just wrong.

In the end, we all need to be free from anger that can consume and come to a point where we feel our life has a purpose. That is what I try to do. I don't feel the need to believe anything that doesn't work for me. I see me being a spiritually minded agnostic for a very long time.

19

Traveling Overseers (Cars, benefits, etc.)

by nbernat in

our do was over for dinner last night and he said that the wts is gonna stop leasing cars to the do and cos and is gonna use an international company to supply cars to all traveling overseers.

i wonder if they'll give them mercedes now.. .

also he was complaining about how they only get $50 monthly.

AllTimeJeff

4 years ago, the US branch sent a letter to all CO's saying that they shouldn't be dropping hints about their need for money and trust that Jehovah would take care of them. Now of course, we have these rumors that the CO position will be at least consolidated if not eliminated. I am sure these guys were first to hear the rumors. And yeah, both CO's and DO's purposely cultivate friendships with those who can help them financially. This is the worst kept secret in the entire borganization. There are always going to be well to do elders that get special priveliges and talks at assemblies that normally wouldn't get those unless their reputation preceeded them about the "help" they provide.

After 15 years, a CO/DO are considered tenured. Generally, they can count on being taken care of the rest of their lives. (unless that will change to) For those who have under 15 years and have to leave, they are generally on their own. Missionaries got a letter just before I left Cameroon that changed the health care. 1-5 years had to contribute a percentage of their weekly/monthly stipend. 6-10 years were less, 11-15 were less, and 15 years and up didn't have to contribute at all.

The CO missionary I was with in Cameroon often complained about the fact that he had to buy and take care of his own car, esp knowing the rich US CO's didn't have to, and here he was sweating his ass off in a 3rd world country with no realistic expectation of support from the poor congregations of Africa. This will be good for him. (up till now, only the US got free cars for the CO's..... Coincidentally, top shelf Bethelites got them as well....)

10

MythBusting..."Six lines of evidence of the end"... A@G's comments

by Awakened at Gilead in

i remember studying this article in the year 2000, and i think that this was the 1st time that i found something hard to swallow in the wts teachings... it just seemed like circular reasoning to me.

did anyone have the same feeling when they studied this article?

let's see if we can debunk these myths.... .

AllTimeJeff

My response to this article now is "....its always something with these guys." The GB will always take something from the bible and claim it as their own and that it applies to them. Most religons do this with the bible. JW's aren't unique.

If you are looking for the rapture and join a church, there are scriptures those churches will use to support their claim.

If you believe that Jesus will forgive everyone because of his ransom sacrifice, their are scriptures other churches will use to support this claim.

If you believe that Jesus will destroy non believers, their are scriptures these churches will use to support their claim.

If you believe that Jehovah is the true god and was worshipped in the first century, and that his name was in wide use back then, then you have a NWT of the bible and are likely a JW.

12

Elder: "Why are apostates ANGRY???"

by hamsterbait in

i was talking to my brother, who remembered an elder who came (in the mundane sense) on a regular basis to talk to us for shepherding calls.. sadly i now realise we got all these calls on cold winter sudays, because with unbaptized kids they could count the time.

( i used to think the borg just cared more in those days).

anyway - this time he went on and on about apostates, it was just before the dc.

AllTimeJeff

I think to be angry is different then to act out. Everyone who left should be angry. For whatever reason you did leave, the Governing Body is culpable to be sure.

I will be honest, the best revenge is to live well. For me and many others born into the cult, we didn't have the opportunities (eductional, monetary, or otherwise) that others had. So we make the best of what we can. To be angry is a part of the process. Hopefully, it isn't the last or only part of the process.

I have seen ex JW's either protest outside DC sites, to hippies playing guitars and wearing tie-dye, and this is what the GB points to and says, "See how bitter they are? They are unahppy like King Saul because they left Jehovah." This is simply frontloaded language to make sure the rank and file JW already has an answer before the question is even asked in his mind. The Governing Body have become experts at anticipating which questions their flock will ask. They then load the answer into the flocks mind, programming a response in the indoctrinated.

The GB knows better. They just don't give a damn about anyone or anything but their own position.

12

JW's and weddings

by nana1957 in

i am sure this has been discussed before, would appreciate anything on this.

i was always under the assumption that a jw was not allowed to be an attendant in a 'worldly' wedding.

meaning that you would not be able to be a bridesmaid or groomsman if you were baptized.

AllTimeJeff

JW's teach that weddings and your participation are super important. Anything that sniffs of JW version of "interfaith" is looked on with high disdain. Weddings of any sort involving any member of a congregation are one of the most regulated events by the elders. This is because the GB of JW's direct this to be so.

Elders must enforce that only JW's participate in a JW wedding. If the elders conscience is in any way offended, you will be marked by the elders. (not to be confused with the whole marking procedure elders can use, although at times this has happened. ) Consider this gem of a quote, still used as a statement of principle so elders can enforce their own views on anything if they choose.

***

w827/15pp.24-25pars.14-16BenefitingFromYourGod-givenConscience***

14

Considering others also involves not asking them to approve of something that is against their consciences. For instance, the congregational elders are responsible for permitting wedding ceremonies in the Kingdom Hall, how these will be conducted, how the hall is decorated, and so forth. The elders in one congregation write: "In one wedding all the bridesmaids walked down the aisle fanning themselves. The next wedding had to outdo the first, so the bridesmaids walked down the aisle twirling umbrellas. The next had to be bigger and better; they wanted twenty bridesmaids and twenty ushers. The hall was starting to be used as a circus."

15

Was this ‘a matter of conscience’ for private decision? No. Even if an engaged couple’s consciences would permit something excessive or outrageous, the collective conscience of the elders could not be ignored. While not wanting to impose their personal tastes, they have at heart the peace, harmony and spirituality of the whole congregation. And they should be conscientiously aiding persons to ‘know how to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is a pillar and support of the truth.’—1 Timothy 3:15; 1 Corinthians 10:31.

16

So, when facing a decision on ‘a matter of conscience,’ we need to reflect on, (1) what God’s Word says relating to it, and (2) how our decision might affect or involve others.

Total control, based on the whims of the local elders. Good luck!

5

The NEW WORLD TRANSLATION

by Honesty in

debunked by a scholar they quote:.

.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7u4i8lnoow&feature=related.

AllTimeJeff

It would have been nice for him to cite an example or two. Any one of the 237 occurrences of Jehovah in the NT would do. I don't think a Trinitarian's take on the divinity of Christ is any more valid then those who argue against the possibility that the NT says Jesus isn't god, but that is another story, and a can of worms I don't mean to open. However, his point is well taken; the NWT is at best disingenuous, at worst dishonest.

I think the greatest dis-service that the WBTS and the NWT in particular does is create the illusion in many JW's minds that not only is the NWT a "scholarly" work, but that you, the "rank and file" JW are a bible expert. Why? Well we have the book "All Scripture is Inspired of God and Beneficial" which is Fred Franz's attempt at being an apologist for his idiotic translation. JW's are told that they know more then scholars do about the bible. You are empowered to preach with a self righteous nose in the air to real education and scholarship, just like the original directors, and Franz in particular wanted.

I have always been amazed and bothered, (even at my indoctrinated high point) at how the GB writes their books on the level of a 5th grader. They never aim at intelligent and educated people, always the poor who don't and wouldn't know any better. Remember the book "Knowledge that Leads to Everlasting Life" and this illustration

A WARM embrace from someone you love. Hearty laughter during a good meal with dear friends. The pleasure of watching your children cheerfully at play. Moments like these are bright spots in life. For many, however, life seems to present one serious problem after another. If that has been your experience, take heart.

2
It is God’s will that you enjoy lasting happiness under the best conditions in wonderful surroundings. This is no mere dream, for God actually offers you the key to such a happy future. That key is knowledge.
3
We are talking about a special kind of knowledge that is far greater than human wisdom. It is "the very knowledge of God." (Proverbs 2:5) Nearly 2,000 years ago, a Bible writer said: "Every house is constructed by someone, but he that constructed all things is God." (Hebrews 3:4) Think of the knowledge that the Maker of all things must possess! The Bible says that God counts and names all the stars. What a staggering thought, since there are hundreds of billions of stars in our own galaxy, and astronomers say that there are about a hundred billion other galaxies! (Psalm 147:4) God also knows all about us, so who else could provide better answers to life’s important questions?—Matthew 10:30.
4
Picture two men trying to repair their cars. Frustrated, one man throws down his tools. The other calmly corrects the problem, turns the ignition key, and smiles as the engine starts up and runs smoothly. You would not have a hard time guessing which of the two men had an instruction manual from the manufacturer. Does it not make sense that God would provide instructions to guide us in life? As you may know, the Bible claims to be just that—a book of instruction and guidance from our Creator, designed to impart the knowledge of God.—2 Timothy 3:16.
5
If the Bible’s claim is true, think of what treasures of knowledge that book must contain! At Proverbs 2:1-5, it urges us to seek wisdom, to dig for it as we would for a hidden treasure—not in the soil of human thinking, but in God’s own Word. If we search there, we will "find the very knowledge of God." Since God understands our limitations and needs, he gives us instruction that will help us to lead peaceful, happy lives. (Psalm 103:14; Isaiah 48:17) Furthermore, the knowledge of God offers us exciting good news.

I never got anyone with a job and an eduction to get this. Several even looked at me and said they were offended at the simplistic way this was presented. How different it was with the poor and those with problems in life. They didn't learn a thing about the bible in this passage, but the implication is clear: Get (JW) knowledge of the bible, and you will be happy. And that, as always, is the JW hook. It isn't about knowledge or education or a better life now. It is about ending your current pain in the new world. (the next life.) There is no education or scholarship. You learn the theology of man, presented as the unerring word of god.

These are the very same people who before (correctly) thought they knew nothing about bible translation. They study with JW's, are told they in fact are experts, and voila! Another indoctrination of the most vulnerable in our society today. Why would they listen to critics of the NWT? You know just as much as the scholars do! Just ask the GB. Thats what they told you!

Now go and preach..... (gag)

21

Isn't this proof the GB doesn't believe what it preaches?

by nbernat in

if the gb really thought they had the exact truth perfect from flaws, shouldn't they be telling their members, "go look at the apostate stuff-- you'll see it's all lies!

compare it to the bible and you'll see it's all lies!

" that would completely eliminate apostasy if it were all true, no?.

AllTimeJeff

It always bothered me that there wasn't any confidence that our "truth" couldn't withstand the scrutiny of critics. I remember distinctly one day listening to Rush Limbaugh (DISCLAIMER: I hate his guts....) You might recall that he only lets "dittoheads" on, people who agree with him. He only wants his conservative views stated and agreed upon. I remember saying to myself, "That sort of sounds like us!"

The GB's advice consistently to us Gilead grads wasn't "Let the truth do the talking" but, "Let your FAITH and EXAMPLE strengthen the congregation." Sounds good at first, but I was realizing that we were trying to get the congregation to follow our personalities, not our reasons for believing as we do.

As an elder, I was asked twice by a couple of publishers why we were always pushing our literature on people of other religions that criticized and raised doubts, but that we couldn't accept their literature that was designed to get us to question our beliefs. It wasn't fair, didn't make sense. And my response was the company line "We have the truth! They are part of Babylone the Great...." Wow, was I indoctrinated. Even then, I didn't feel comfortable with my own explanations.

I think there is a part of most JW's brain that tries to tell them "Something isn't right here." Not everyone listens to that voice, obviously.

28

The practice of "Shepherding Calls" (attention ex-elders)

by Lady Zombie in

the practice of "shepherding calls" has always been somewhat of a mystery to me.. growing up, a shepherding call was for jws who were doing something that a few/some/most (didn't matter which) found stumbling or suspicious.

for instance, i remember my folks gossiping to each other about a jw couple who had been sloughing off the meetings in order to go dancing.

one of the congregation members (who were absent themselves on a particular night) saw them going into a dance club on a meeting night and promptly ran to an elder.

AllTimeJeff

Shepherding as I was taught it was supposed to be about everyone. But to be sure, when the elders got together, we always concentrated with those who were weak. (i.e. low hours, missing meetings and/or "bad attitude")

We tried calling it a "friendly visit" because shepherding calls have acquired (righrfully so) a negative reputation. And yeah, CO's were always interested in being tough on the subject, to which I learned the unique skill of framing our work and telling them what they needed to hear.

I wouldn't doubt that the elders may want to give you some attention Lady Zombie. They could also be under a lot of pressure from the CO.

34

Few Jehovah's Witnesses bother to GRASP THEIR OWN THEOLOGY!!!

by Terry in

keep this one fact in mind about jehovah's witnesses.

they exist in three parts throughout their history.. 1. honest bible students attracted to the gimmicks of russell (charts, graphs, chronologies, pyramid inches, etc.

) expected the end of the world to come and they wanted to know more.. 2.contrarian hard heads under rutherford wanted to prove everybody was wrong about everything except themselves.

AllTimeJeff

The JW theology is really bait and switch.

The bait (and dare I say fake) theology is : YOU CAN LIVE FOREVER IN PARADISE ON EARTH if you study THE TRUTH THAT LEADS TO ETERNAL LIFE you will then get the key that is KNOWLEDGE THAT LEADS TO EVERLASTING LIFE.

Thats the hook. Their is no theology at all. Serve Jehovah, (wink wink) and LIVE FOREVER.

The switch? Depends. Of course, you lose your freedom to think and act for yourself. Thats a switch. But because there is so much emphasis on your SALVATION and LIVING FOREVER IN PARADISE, you don't realize all of the pathetic teachings that make up the real theology of JW's.

Specifically, at Gilead, you learn all about TRUE JW THEOLOGY. (this is where I realized I was in a cult) It is where you learn that JW believe that the entire bible is a prophetic book where the characters represent (at some point) Russell, Rutherford, Knorr and the Governing Body. Thats right, the GB still teach and maintain that Noah, Abraham, and my favorites Elijah (=Rutherford) and Elisha (=Knorr). You learn that JW's teach that though no one knows the day or hour, JW's have been as busy as any religous group through the 20th century in trying to predict EXACTLY that. (hello 1975!) You also learn that the GB isn't that humble at all, they really believe they are Christs brothers and expect to be treated that way, since they represent Christ.

Ever wonder why you don't read of types and anti types in the WT anymore? Because even though it is still the official theology of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, they realize that if they promote typology in our times, every one will head to the exits. That is why it is called "the deep things" and spoon fed to a select few that the higher up representitives of the GB believe will not stumble over it.

If JW's don't get or understand their own theology, it is because the Carrot always obscures their view of the past teachings of the GB.

12

From Know It All Religon to a simple Know It All?

by AllTimeJeff in

jw
friends

i was just curious for those of you who have left for at least a little time if you look back on yourself when you first left the borg and had this happen; because you were suddenly free to think, you thought you were right about most things soon after you left........ my jw experience groomed in me a disposition that i was always right.

that personality trait didn't leave just because i left jw's.

i realized one day last year that i thought in much the same ways i did as a jw, that is, i never questioned my own assumptions.. we were told that jw's were "the most educated people on earth".

AllTimeJeff

I am simply amazed at the amount of different people and different world views that exist. It doesn't bother me, it excites me! There is a lot to learn and enjoy. It's a great reward for unlocking your brain.