Posts by AllTimeJeff

86

Christian Atheists, why did you throw the baby out with the bath water?

by Elsewhere in

jw
friends

"i contend that we are both atheists.

i just believe in one fewer god than you do.

when you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why i dismiss yours.

AllTimeJeff

From Caliber:

So a basic definition of spirituality is the quality of one’s sensitivity to the things of the spirit. And what are these things of the spirit? These are those that cannot be directly perceived by our senses but whose effects can be deduced or inferred by our observations, like love, justice, peace, etc.

So the basic meaning of spirituality is that it is a term which encompasses everything that we cannot see directly with our eyes, directly perceive by the other senses and know by our mere reason. That is spirituality in its basic meaning

On first read, I have some issues with that definition of spirituality. I think first of all that it allows for one to continue to believe things that cannot be perceived.

Perception is different from faith. I don't need Jesus to come down to the heavens to tell me that the tender emotions, esp love, is very good and healthy. I don't need Zeus or Buddha to help me to see that a purpose in life is valuable, healthy, and necessary.

Faith is believing that love and purpose come from Jesus or Buddha, and that they caused these things as their specific religious traditions teach.

Perception is the acknowledgment that love and purpose, while not tangible phyiscally, are realities of the human experience. Perception also teaches us that love and purpose do not need to be linked to religion or a god, that atheists and agnostics also enjoy these things without a religious truth behind it.

To be sensitive is to be educated and aware. If one is unwilling to consider the evidence, it doesn't change the evidence. It only tells on the person unwilling to consider it.

86

Christian Atheists, why did you throw the baby out with the bath water?

by Elsewhere in

jw
friends

"i contend that we are both atheists.

i just believe in one fewer god than you do.

when you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why i dismiss yours.

AllTimeJeff

Personal spirituality (i.e. knowing who you are and discovering your purpose in life) is more important than figuring out the answer to a question that can't be proven.

What does one get out of believing in God? Purpose in life, that their existence is not in vain.

Does it ever occur to theists that atheists have that figured out already, and they didn't need god/religion to help them? That they did this on their own?

This question is a math problem that excludes about 5 other continents.

The real "baby" is your purpose in life. However you choose to fill that need (call it spiritual or whatever) is what you should do. The bathwater that should be thrown out is the entrenched positions that aren't willing to learn anything.

"I have it figured out! I can stop learning! I can stop understanding other people!" If you ever wonder why the occasional loudmouth theist pisses me off, that last statement is it in a nutshell, the insistence that there is one right way for all people, one truth, one true god. And the only person not involved in the discussion? The one true god. Silence.

Having said that, I don't find it particularly uplifting for two sides to argue about this. Why? Because while there is utility in working this out for yourself via debates (lord knows I did) I would be remiss not to point out that this is not an "either/or" scenario. But you would have to open up your eyes and be honest to acknowledge that. You would have to be open that your purpose in life, that your "spirituality" is not linked to either believing or not believing.

17

Did the Watchtower just admit to MIND-CONTROL?

by pharmer in

consider some of the other twisted things used to mislead gods people today.

on occasion opposers will question the various teachings that jehovahs people hold in common.

often this becomes a debate about words, just as it was in the first century.

AllTimeJeff

Don't worry, if they got called on it, an explanation will appear in the footnote of a Study WT saying that they didn't mean miind control, that it is something else, that you should follow the FD slave anyway, and that they were right then, they are right now, and obey or else.

34

Need Advice About Letter to the IRS to Revoke the WTBTS' Tax Exempt Status

by ABibleStudent in

please review my letter to the irs commissioner to establish a process for revoking the tax exempt status of dangerous cults and write comments about how to improve it.. rough draft of letter.

mr. douglas h. shulman .

commissioner.

AllTimeJeff

With all respect, the IRS is not going to take away JW's tax exempt status. The letter from one citizen who could potentially be framed as a disgruntled former member will do little to nothing.

If the letter makes you feel better, and you want to be on the record though, that is what being a citizen is all about! Just be realistic about the outcome.

20

Your thoughts on whether atheists and agnostics are one step closer to God than religionists?

by Fernando in

.

topgodapexspiritual persons (eg paul)middleatheists, agnostics, secularistsbottomreligionists (eg saul)seemingly in scripture the only persons jesus repeatedly tore into were the religionists (pharisees and sanhedrin or governing body).

it seems he gave the romans (secularists) scant attention, and chose to eat with the likes of prostitutes and presumably also lgbt persons..

AllTimeJeff

Hi Phizzy. I grow in my spirituality by learning and being honest with myself. I am not afraid to read or consider other points of view. I think that a growing spirituality involves more than "getting closer to god". I think it has everything to do with improving as a person and finding your purpose in life. With developing a philosphy that is both solid, yet allows for learning and growth.

I think that if "spirituality" causes you to look down on people, to rule people out, to give up on people, so that you can be right or better, than you go backwards and not forwards.

Being a spiritual person is not about finding a group of people who agrees with you so that you can think your group is right and others are wrong. It's about being a light in the world to everyone, to be yourself while allowing others to be themselves.

20

Your thoughts on whether atheists and agnostics are one step closer to God than religionists?

by Fernando in

.

topgodapexspiritual persons (eg paul)middleatheists, agnostics, secularistsbottomreligionists (eg saul)seemingly in scripture the only persons jesus repeatedly tore into were the religionists (pharisees and sanhedrin or governing body).

it seems he gave the romans (secularists) scant attention, and chose to eat with the likes of prostitutes and presumably also lgbt persons..

AllTimeJeff

Wasn't expecting to find that old post up here. Thanks for finding that BTS.

My thoughts on this are simple: I think that you limit yourself when you go all in to the group think of a church/religion. I think that there are more evolved ways to view god and spirituality. When you move past group think, you allow yourself to grow.

The 4 Stages link really does describe to me in a general way why I feel that way.

18

Did you DF yourself on purpose?

by Evidently Apostate in

jw
friends

lately i have been thinking about saying something apostate to my elder father in law.

he is an uber witness and actually believed that god interveined and saved him when he had a heart attack and kept him alive, until he told me that and i asked him why jehovah allowed jws in nazi concentration camps to suffer horribly and die but he loved an alcoholic more than them.. i havent been to a kh in 6 months or in service in years.

i grew a beard and basicallyhe avoids talking to me.

AllTimeJeff

Write a letter. Write it on one side of one page. (Bethel policy). Don't make it long. Make it pretty damn biting.

When I put in my resignation letter, the elders still wanted to meet with me. In my case, they held off announcing it for several weeks because it came completely out of the blue. I had planned it all, and gave off very little as to my intentions. Reading here (lurking) during that time convinced me that I had to go out on my terms. So I planned it all out.

I moved out in a few hours to a new apartment, let my ex wife know that I was done with her in a seperate letter, and put my resignation letter with it. (we were staying at an elders house after coming back from Africa.)

I say, resign. I also say if at all possible, save the drama. Plan on leaving and leave. Who cares if it shocks them? It's a cult, a no win situation. You can't change them. You can only move forward.

13

What is the protocol for sending an anniversary card to...

by AwSnap in

jw
friends

someone who's shunning you?

it's my sister's 10th anniversary today.

i sent her an anniversary card in the mail, and am reeeeally hoping it doesn't get returned to me.

AllTimeJeff

Send the card. When in doubt, do the normal, loving thing.

138

Still a hard line on DF family members WTApr15 2012

by Gladring in

the april 2012 wt study article has some of the most strongly worded statements about contact with disfellowshipped family members.. page 12, paragraph 17: -.

good that can come when a family loyally.

upholds jehovahs decree not to associate.

AllTimeJeff

Sorry 00DAD. I apologize, you're right. I don't have to deal with it everyday like you do.

What I mean is, there is little anyone can do to change it. We can only change our response.

But I feel bad that I came across as coldly as I did. That's not how I feel about it.

Be patient and loving, and perhaps in time, they will come back to you. :)

464

Applying Math, Physics, Archeology to THE STORY OF NOAH

by Terry in

AllTimeJeff

Hi Truthseeker. I just want to say, I love Terry's post here, and I don't scoff at your faith.

However, I don't believe the flood account for a second. It doesn't make any sense in how it was reported, how it was purportedly done, or what it accomplished.

See, "evil" according to the bible is still around. Nothing changed.

I think that the only relevant terms to measure this are in human terms.

Having said that, I wish you well in your faith. Regardless of what anyone thinks of the flood account of the bible, it's potential meaning is very limited today, especially considering the (lack of) evidence.